If plates then God

[honorentheos]

This is central to the main thrust of your point. You and I agree, Smith didn't author the Book of Mormon on his own or with minor help. We diverge at whether that help was divine or mundane.

In the column against it being mundane you have...Smith couldn't have authored it on his own plus a bunch of folks believe it is plus the primary participants say so. Essentially subjective reasons.

In the column against it being divine you have it conflicting with archaeology and anthropology, being incredibly anachronistic, embodying 19th century racist views towards Native Americans, and across the board clearly being a product of the 19th century. Also, it is clear that Oliver Cowdery influenced it's authorship because the process and results meaningfully changed with his involvement.

That's not a sidebar. That's what it means to be open to evidence.

[honorentheos]

I'm denying any credit at all to any possible arguments against Smith composing the Book of Mormon himself. So to disprove that, all you have to do is find one single argument that carries even a bit of weight, that raises even a bit of legitimate doubt that Smith could have done it himself.

There are four primary periods we could divide the production of the Book of Mormon into: From when Smith claims to have received the plates to when Martin Harris arrived to serve as scribe (Sept 1827-April 1828), the period when Martin Harris served as scribe (April - June 1828), the period after the 116 pages were lost to when Oliver Cowdery arrived (June 1828-April 1829), and the period when Oliver Cowdery served as scribe (April 1829-June/July 1829).

The first two are entirely associated with the production of the Book of Lehi which we don't have and it is not clear exactly what was produced when. Harris served as scribe for about 60 days between April and June 1828 but it isn't clear what was produced between Smith and Emma prior to his arrival. Emma appears to have been involved early on based on stories she shared so it seems likely some of the Book of Lehi was prepared before that 60-ish day period.

After Harris and before Cowdery is about a year of time between June 1828 and April 1829 when minimal work was accomplished.

Between April and June 1829 Oliver and Joseph produced the majority of the +/- 500 pages of the Book of Mormon.

I think it's clear Smith couldn't author the Book of Mormon on his own or he would have. It required Oliver Cowdery to produce it.

[MG 2.0]

Peripheral issues, as I’ve mentioned a whole lot of times now here and there, are secondary to the primary issues. Folks that would like to either ignore or deflect from the critical importance of primary issues will move to secondary issues in order or with the intent of avoiding the primary issues.

Then please respond to this primary issue:

I'm denying any credit at all to any possible arguments against Smith composing the Book of Mormon himself. So to disprove that, all you have to do is find one single argument that carries even a bit of weight, that raises even a bit of legitimate doubt that Smith could have done it himself.

It's not enough just to point away to long discussions that have been published somewhere else. The point of my statement was to call that bluff: I'm saying I've read those long discussions, and they're garbage. But if they're not, then all MG has to do is find one decent argument, out of all of them, and lay it out here concisely.

If he can, then I'm wrong, a one-shot kill. If he can't, then I'm right.

I didn’t pursue his line of questioning because I believe the position he takes in the first paragraph is mistaken.

He then, in the second paragraph, calls out all studies and research that has gone into Book of Mormon studies having to do with authorship as “garbage” without any reason why. No evidence at all to support that position.

I didn’t feel as though his post was worthy of further response.

And I don’t want to go through and rehash the whole thread.

We’ve covered a lot of bases.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

This is central to the main thrust of your point. You and I agree, Smith didn't author the Book of Mormon on his own or with minor help. We diverge at whether that help was divine or mundane.

In the column against it being mundane you have...Smith couldn't have authored it on his own plus a bunch of folks believe it is plus the primary participants say so. Essentially subjective reasons.

I have no way of knowing whether or not you have read the whole thread. The “column against it being mundane” is a bit longer than you make it out to be. And the reasons are not purely subjective.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I think it's clear Smith couldn't author the Book of Mormon on his own or he would have. It required Oliver Cowdery to produce it.

He needed someone to transcribe while he dictated. And in Oliver’s case especially, someone that could act as a witness to the veracity of the process being directed by God.

Emma also acted as a witness to the same.

As I’ve said, however, there is no evidence showing that Oliver or Emma, or anyone else for that matter, put words into Joseph’s mouth as he dictated the words that came to be the Book of Mormon.

It was all Joseph…and by whatever means he was able to speak those words without the help of man.

Regards,
MG

[honorentheos]

This is central to the main thrust of your point. You and I agree, Smith didn't author the Book of Mormon on his own or with minor help. We diverge at whether that help was divine or mundane.

In the column against it being mundane you have...Smith couldn't have authored it on his own plus a bunch of folks believe it is plus the primary participants say so. Essentially subjective reasons.

I have no way of knowing whether or not you have read the whole thread. The “column against it being mundane” is a bit longer than you make it out to be. And the reasons are not purely subjective.

Regards,
MG

Is it? We've had plenty of discussions over the years and it's pretty easy to summarize what you think is evidence against the assistance Smith received being mundane rather than divine in origin. What wasn't listed that isn't captured in people believe it, folks involved in writing it claim divine participation, and Smith not appearing to have been able to write it on his own?

[honorentheos]

I think it's clear Smith couldn't author the Book of Mormon on his own or he would have. It required Oliver Cowdery to produce it.

He needed someone to transcribe while he dictated. And in Oliver’s case especially, someone that could act as a witness to the veracity of the process being directed by God.

Emma also acted as a witness to the same.

As I’ve said, however, there is no evidence showing that Oliver or Emma, or anyone else for that matter, put words into Joseph’s mouth as he dictated the words that came to be the Book of Mormon.

It was all Joseph…and by whatever means he was able to speak those words without the help of man.

Regards,
MG

No. He had scribes but only Oliver had a meaningful impact on the production. Until Oliver arrived the project had stopped for almost a year. Prior to that they produced +/-120 pages. At best that was less than two pages a day if the entire Book of Lehi was produced when Martin was scribe. But given Emma's accounts she had to have been involved in some production efforts so that production rate goes down. And remember we don't know the quality of that writing.

Oliver was essential. If God, why?

[MG 2.0]

I have no way of knowing whether or not you have read the whole thread. The “column against it being mundane” is a bit longer than you make it out to be. And the reasons are not purely subjective.

Regards,
MG

Is it? We've had plenty of discussions over the years and it's pretty easy to summarize what you think is evidence against the assistance Smith received being mundane rather than divine in origin. What wasn't listed that isn't captured in people believe it, folks involved in writing it claim divine participation, and Smith not appearing to have been able to write it on his own?

It appears that you may be jumping in on the thread not having read all that came before. For your benefit and more especially for others that may be reading this thread but not participating directly here are just some links that you might find helpful that were embedded in previous posts.

https://latterdaysaintinsights.BYU.edu/ ... he-plates/

https://scholarsarchive.BYU.edu/cgi/vie ... ntext=jbms

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7HikZ4 ... sktop&nd=1

https://rsc.BYU.edu/sites/default/files ... 0smith.pdf

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... anslation/

https://interpreterfoundation.org/estim ... vidence-1/

https://interpreterfoundation.org/estim ... vidence-3/

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blo ... nd-the-gap
(go to handout link)

It’s a lot to read, but I’ve found that the information is sound and has relevance to the plates and also to Joseph’s ability to write the Book of Mormon on his own.

For those that are looking at different views in regards to the information found within these documents go back in time and read the thread. More often than not, I am the only one that takes these documents and findings seriously.

But that should come as no surprise.

Honor, I’ve spent a lot of time online recently. You’re coming in at a point where I have grown a bit weary of my iPad and this thread in particular. I just received the new Romney/A Reckoning book today and want to spend some time reading it in addition to getting some other things done.

I’m going to leave this thread for now (as I’ve done a few times already) and check back in at a later date.

I expect that there will now be some armchair psychoanalysis and reinterpretations of what I’ve said. So be it. I would only ask that others go back and read what I’ve actually said rather than edited versions.

Regards,
MG

[Kishkumen]

Romney is a good example of someone whom I would not call a religious fanatic but instead a sincere man of faith with deep integrity.

[honorentheos]

MG,

Why is it not possible to offer an explanation for why Oliver's involvement clearly influenced us ever having the Book of Mormon at all consistent with the divine involvement theory you propose? Why did God need Oliver Cowdery to be involved for Smith to be able to produce the Book of Mormon?

That is a substantial challenge to your theory. It should be addressed.