If plates then God

[Gadianton]

It’s a lot to read, but I’ve found that the information is sound and has relevance

too bad you haven't read any of those links yourself. you haven't found crap because you haven't read the links.

Honor,

thanks for the great information.

[MG 2.0]

Oliver went through years of estrangement from the SL church. When he was finally rebaptized his only wish was to be a humble member of the church. He never made it out west.

A few months before his death, Oliver received a visit from Jacob Gates, an old Mormon acquaintance from before his excommunication in 1838. Gates, heading east on a mission to England, heard that his former priesthood leader was in poor health and stopped in Richmond to renew their friendship. After conversing about troubled times in early church history, Gates asked Cowdery about his testimony printed in the Book of Mormon. He wanted to know if the testimony was based on a dream, the imagination of his mind, an illusion, or a myth. Jacob wanted the truth. As the account goes, Oliver Cowdery got up from his resting place, retrieved a first edition Book of Mormon, and read solemnly the testimony. Turning to face Gates, he said,

Jacob, I want you to remember what I say to you. I am a dying man, and what would it profit me to tell you a lie? I know . . . that this Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God. My eyes saw, my ears heard, and my understanding was touched, and I know that whereof I testified is true. It was no dream, no vain imagination of the mind—it was real.

And not long thereafter:

On 3 March 1850, the day Oliver Cowdery died at the Peter Whitmer Sr. home, he was surrounded by his wife; their only daughter, Maria; his brother-in-law, David Whitmer; Hiram Page, his nurse; others of the Whitmer family; his half-sister, Lucy; and her husband, Phineas Young. Oliver asked to be raised so he could speak. As he had done hundreds of times before, he bore a resolute testimony of the Book of Mormon. Phineas reported that Oliver, on his deathbed, confided in him, “The[re] was no Salvation but in the valley and through the priesthood there.

Not likely the words of a man who you folks say was a co-conspiring fraud.

He had nothing to gain at this point.

I think Joseph was inspired to wait for Oliver during the translation of the Book of Mormon. Oliver had the skills that were needed. He was a detail man and had the stick-to-it-iv-ness to get the job done. This essay outlines the facts (and yes, gadianton, Doc, Morley, and others I did read it )

https://rsc.BYU.edu/days-never-be-forgo ... mon-scribe

One thing to remember at the end of the day also is that during the translation process the words literally came out of Joseph’s mouth. That doesn’t seem to lend itself towards a mutual fraud. And again, Oliver’s testimony near and on his deathbed doesn’t lend itself to that particular accusation being made…that he was a scheming fraud along with Joseph.

It just doesn’t fit as much as you might want to squirrel around the facts.

Gadianton and others, I’m not going to take the time to respond to personal insults and the like (I’m looking at the previous lying post by gadianton). I will respond if I see something that peaks my interest such as the series of posts from honor. I want to limit time on this board rather than being pulled back in at every turn. If I don’t respond don’t take it personally.

I need to pick and choose. There are other things to do.

Regards,
MG

[honorentheos]

He had nothing to gain at this point.

Quite the opposite. He had lost almost everything at the end of his life. His brother in law, Phineas Young, kept communication with him open and there are hints during the succession crisis before Brigham had solidified support he was considering having the witnesses fall in behind his claim to authority. Recall the three witnesses were tasked with identifying the first 12 apostles so there was some tie there. The letters between P. Young and Cowdery talk around it but Brigham's tone changed once he didn't need their support and Oliver was left to find his own supporting means to rejoin the saints as essentially the last refuge of a man without means. He had no more options left but to rejoin.

I think Joseph was inspired to wait for Oliver during the translation of the Book of Mormon. Oliver had the skills that were needed. He was a detail man and had the stick-to-it-iv-ness to get the job done. This essay outlines the facts (and yes, gadianton, Doc, Morley, and others I did read it )

So god's process was to have Smith and Harris fail at a task prophesied in the Book of Mormon with great anxiety to wait for Cowdery to show up and get it done after Smith had been at the job for a year and a half with nothing left to show to that point? I see why the saying exists God moves in mysterious ways. Leaves plenty of room for just so confabulations.

One thing to remember at the end of the day also is that during the translation process the words literally came out of Joseph’s mouth. That doesn’t seem to lend itself towards a mutual fraud. And again, Oliver’s testimony near and on his deathbed doesn’t lend itself to that particular accusation being made…that he was a scheming fraud along with Joseph.

It just doesn’t fit as much as you might want to squirrel around the facts.

That's the story. It's irrelevant to the fact that it only occured at that rate once Cowdery showed up. So why did Smith become capable then but wasn't before? If God, why?

Keep in mind that +/-6 pages a day, while good, is not ridiculously good. It's very easily in the range of production for a creative writer. So this doesn't mean anything to my point. Before Cowdery it was practically zero for nine months, maybe less than two pages a day if Smith and Harris produced the Book of Lehi in the two months Harris was with Smith acting as scribe.

If Smith couldn't produce the flawed book we have but with divine assistance, why then Oliver?

[Marcus]

...One thing to remember at the end of the day also is that during the translation process the words literally came out of Joseph’s mouth. That doesn’t seem to lend itself towards a mutual fraud. And again, Oliver’s testimony near and on his deathbed doesn’t lend itself to that particular accusation being made…that he was a scheming fraud along with Joseph.

It just doesn’t fit as much as you might want to squirrel around the facts...

it's amusing to see you try to make an insult about facts, because you can't prove anything factual in your previous paragraph.

It’s a lot to read, but I’ve found that the information is sound and has relevance

too bad you haven't read any of those links yourself. you haven't found crap because you haven't read the links.

Honor,

thanks for the great information.

Yes, my thanks too. Very interesting.

[honorentheos]

too bad you haven't read any of those links yourself. you haven't found crap because you haven't read the links.

Honor,

thanks for the great information.

Yes, my thanks too. Very interesting.

I'm glad others found it interesting. Like many things I'm history I find it fits much of the evidence but it's only a theory in every sense. But it's an interesting one.

[MG 2.0]

That's the story. It's irrelevant to the fact that it only occured at that rate once Cowdery showed up. So why did Smith become capable then but wasn't before? If God, why?

Keep in mind that +/-6 pages a day, while good, is not ridiculously good. It's very easily in the range of production for a creative writer. So this doesn't mean anything to my point. Before Cowdery it was practically zero for nine months, maybe less than two pages a day if Smith and Harris produced the Book of Lehi in the two months Harris was with Smith acting as scribe.

If Smith couldn't produce the flawed book we have but with divine assistance, why then Oliver?

He needed a scribe the caliber of Oliver Cowdery. Up until that time Martin, Emma, Hyrum, and one or two others didn’t cut it. Oliver had the basic skills to move the translation forward at a rapid rate. His grammatical skills, although not perfect, were good enough to prepare the printer’s manuscript that Grandin then could do final editing without having to basically change and rewrite everything.

And again, it’s not like Joseph could do double duty. He had his head in a hat.

I think you may be making a bit too much out the time span between Harris/Emma/Hyrum and Cowdery. The important thing is he arrived at the right place at the right time and we then see the translation period spanning a very short period of time from there on. With a quick turn around going from OM to PM.

You are by passing the what appears to be a miraculous creation of the text itself.

Look over here! Squirrel!

Regards,
MG

[honorentheos]

You are by passing the what appears to be a miraculous creation of the text itself.

Look over here! Squirrel!

Regards,
MG

Weird. I think the content of the Book of Mormon being clearly from the 19th century and not anywhere near the level of miraculous kinda undermines the idea above. I'm not passing by the issues, I'm discounting what people claim because the content and other information outside their claims don't support their claims at all.

The Book of Mormon places 19th century racist views of the Native Americans and 19th century Christianity central to it's theme with nothing in it unequivocally from ancient Americas? Look! Folks need to leave room for faith! Sckwrl!

[Moksha]

Not sure if this aligns with the gold or melamine plates, but Mormon preppers who stockpile alcohol and cigarettes can barter with the bad habit zombies to obtain extra food for their families. Zombies are more interested in feeding their habits than their families. That is why you never hear zombie family values praised, yet even South Park knows about Mormon Family Values.

Melamine plates do not chip like stoneware or porcelain, although they are not a good medium for storing an ancient system of pictographic writings. It is a matter of trade-offs. If melamine plates then you have efficient Mormon preppers.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Not sure if this aligns with the gold or melamine plates, but Mormon preppers who stockpile alcohol and cigarettes can barter with the bad habit zombies to obtain extra food for their families. Zombies are more interested in feeding their habits than their families. That is why you never hear zombie family values praised, yet even South Park knows about Mormon Family Values.

Melamine plates do not chip like stoneware or porcelain, although they are not a good medium for storing an ancient system of pictographic writings. It is a matter of trade-offs. If melamine plates then you have efficient Mormon preppers.

One thing that Mormon scholars have recently discovered is that Melamine makes a great non-stick cooking surface.

Just think of all those delicious hot meals Moroni must have cooked on the Golden Plates while fleeing the Lamanites. It also explains why Joseph found so much grease and bits of egg and tapir on the Golden Plates.

Moroni’s fondness for cooking didn’t stop there. It has been theorized that Moroni spent much of the last decade of his life writing a sacred recipe book, “Pasta La Vista, Baby.” Of course Moroni’s first choice for the title of his cookbook was, “Cumorah Kitchen Chaos” but he found out later that title was already taken.

Unfortunately, Moroni’s sacred cookbook is contained in the sealed portion. Just think of all the delicious, nutritious and sacrilicious recipes that await mankind once the sealed portion is finally opened.


A close approximation of Moroni cooking tapir cheese burgers on the non-sticky Melamine Golden Plates:

[Marcus]

...I see why the saying exists God moves in mysterious ways. Leaves plenty of room for just so confabulations...

So. Saying "god moves in mysterious ways" is a way to confabulate.