Vēritās wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 3:41 pm
While Res is in hyper denial over the US Media's pushing of Israel narratives uncritically, we turn our attention to the latest exhibits demonstrating the absurd levels of Pro-Israel propaganda being pushed on our airwaves.
This is a lie, and a personal attack. You made a false claim, doubled down, tripled down, quadrupled down. And when I gave you an opportunity to prove your claim, couldn’t simply admit you were wrong about the US media’s reporting of casualties. I explained why the particular false claim you made is important. I have never claimed that there is not a general pro-Israel bias in the media. That’s a huge Strawman you created because you can’t just say you were wrong. Sad, dude.
Yesterday I watched in disgust as Morning Joe insisted over and over that this "All started because of Hama's attack." It was as if he were reading a script. There was no acknowledgment of any of the hundreds of murders committed by IDF and Israeli settlers in previous years, because that would require understanding context. But calling one side "evil" is nothing short of dehumanizing them. He then went on to attack Harvard student groups who signed a letter that was Pro-Palestinian, and though he never quoted a single word from the letter, he screamed at the top of his lungs, "NOT PRO-PALESTINIAN, THEY ARE PRO-HAMAS!" So all of the potential demonization and failure to grasp nuance that Res has been trying to foist on me, is actually in the media I've been condemning as overwhelmingly biased. People can decided for themselves who is actually fighting the good fight.
So, this is Veritas personal grievance theater. Good to understand the context.
Do you have a link to what you watched? Given that Joe is generally pro Palestine, I’m guessing there’s some context missing context.
The fact that somebody else is demonizing others doesn’t change or excuse what you’ve done in this thread. You made a specific, false claim that feeds anti-semetic tropes, made arguments that devalued Israeli lives, and assumed that people who disagree with specific things you say must be Jews. None of that is necessary to strongly defend Palestinians or to criticize Israel. None. And “But look at what Joe said” isn’t a defense of what you said. It can be true that both you and Joe have said things that feed bigotry and destructive stereotypes. It’s not one or the other. And if it’s both, you should both stop.
Virtually every show I've seen that has been trying to host a "debate" from both sides, has required all of their hosts from the Palestinian side to preface their position that Hamas is a terrorist group and one other guy on Piers Morgan took it a step further and demanded he call them "evil." Talk about poisoning the well. Typically they refuse to do so without also demanding everyone acknowledge Israel is also being terrorists when they slaughter innocent civilians, at which point chaos ensues and everyone starts screaming at each other.
You’ve already demonstrated enough confirmation bias and taking statements out of context to make me highly skeptical of your subjective descriptions. I just watched part of a morning Joe episode in which one of the guests sympathetically described the attack as an act of desperation because Hamas felt abandoned by the other countries in the region. Nobody jumped down the guest’s throat.
Just yesterday CNN allows IDF to make a
false claim about a simple Arabic calendar, claiming it proves Hamas is using Hospitals as command centers. CNN didn't bother to do the minimum to verify any of this before trotting out to their millions of viewers. And none of the IDF's so called "proof" that hospitals are Hamas command centers has been independently verified by any news organization, but don't let that stop them from spreading the IDF's claims anyway. Because you see, Israel tells the truth, always. Hamas, those dirty Muslims, well, they hide behind children and then lie about it. That's the premise we're supposed to blindly accept every time it.
More cherry picking. Both you and the show you linked to showed a small snippet from a larger news segment. You act as if that’s somehow typical on CNN’s reporting. Here’s the CNN article I just pulled from the site.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/17/middleea ... index.html
It report what both sides say and is careful to note what it cannot confirm. It states that the IDF has not shown the existence of the large underground command center it claims is there. It expresses skepticism at the US government’s claim that it has independent evidence of the tunnels. It certainly does not take whatever the IDF says as gospel truth.
What you are doing is outrage hunting — looking for isolated details that puts you off without considering the necessary context. And then you use those snippets to make broad claims about the news reporting in general that are inaccurate. It’s on par with Atlantic Mike posting videos of crazy leftists and pretending that they represent the views of all leftists.
And check this out. Medhi Hasan hosts an Israel spokesperson
who flat out denies Israel has killed any children at all. This is the absurd level of gaslighting we're expected to tolerate from Israel's apologists, and if we push back, the emotionally unhinged who are effectively carrying the water for Netanyahu, accuse you of fostering hate, encouraging hate crimes, being too emotional bla bla bla. Truth be damned right?
LOL. If you watch one of Veritas’s video clips, watch this one. I don’t think he watched it himself. Hassan tears the guest a new one about his absurd claims. He then asks the guest point blank why the media should trust anything the Israeli government says. And the example he uses is the calendar example Veritas was complaining about in the last paragraph.
In fact, the Hassan clip and the CNN article is a pretty good example of how I think the mainstream media media is approaching the conflict. They know both sides lie, so they report the information from both sides, do their best to confirm or contradict what they can and flag what they cannot confirm. Note that the clip from CNN doesn’t show the entire segment or any other reporting on the calendar.
Veritas, you’re just doing the same thing over and over: cherry picking snippets from the media and claiming they are representative.
And, once again, nothing in those two clips changes the rightness or wrongness of your own words. One can both be on the side of angels and do the devils work. You don’t have to invoke anti-Semitic tropes to advocate for Palestinians or criticize Israel.
Why doesn't our media talk about all of the innocent people killed by Israel prior to these terrorist attacks? Because their narrative always has to begin whenever Hamas attacks, that way all killings by Israel after that can be easily spun as "self defense." Any educated scholar trying to bring nuance and context to the table is almost always attacked as being pro-Hamas, pro-terrorism and an antisemite.
Given that the attack on October 7 was in breach of a cease fire agreement, that’s not surprising. News tends to emphasize new events. That’s especially true in television news, which doesn’t lend itself to in-depth analysis in its regular programming. CNN and others will do extended reports in the form of documentaries. But, in Day to Day regular reporting, the focus is on immediate events.
I read the WP daily, and they do have analysis that goes into those types of issues. National newspapers have a format that lends itself to that.
As to professors that bring nuance, could you link to examples. I haven’t seen it. But I haven’t hunted for it either.
What are you raving about? Are you saying that the media ignores IDF killing Palestinian children? Like in this WP Report on illegal killings of Palestinians the West Bank, including children? Did the WP fire those reporters? Did you even look to see if the killings reported in the vids you linked had been reported?
And aren’t we talking about them right now. Is the Mossad going drag you away in the dead of night for talking about them? What you’re complaining about is that the news is focused on reporting the ongoing war against Gaza and not the accusers of violence in the Middle East in the past. And not all events in the past — the ones you cherry pick.
And did you read the text of News week article, or just the headline? Most of article is devoted to the firing of a sportswriter of a local Philadelphia news outlet and the editor in chief of an academic journal called e-Life. The notice of the latter’s firing included prior problems with his social media posts. Neither of them were fired for reporting. A cartoonist for the Guardian after he took to Twitter to complain that the paper wouldn’t run a cartoon he created.
The AP fired one reporter for violating neutrality requirements. The BBC suspended several others pending investigation for the same reason. by the way, the article refers to the fact that the BBC has a policy of not referring to Hamas as terrorists, which cuts against your claim of pro-Israel bias.
So it’s not that reporters are being fired if they report on the IDF shooting children. For the news reporters on the list, it’s not adhering to neutrality rules that extend beyond the contents of articles.
So, we can and do talk about Israel killing Palestinian babies. Given the grotesque number that Israel is killing right now, and the daily media reporting on that fact, it seems silly to claim that the media is biased toward Israel simply because it’s not talking about two children killed in the past.
Job offers have been pulled for Harvard students
who expressed their criticism of Israel, Palestinian journalists are being fired left and right because any criticism of Israel is going to be considered antisemitism. And if you try protesting the occupation as an Israeli, well you just might
find yourself in jail. Jesus Christ, where is our first amendment champion when you need him? Res once called me a fascist because I suggested fake news outlets that have no journalistic standards should not be allowed to categorize themselves as real news, but he then buries his head in the sand when it comes to the explicit first amendment violations we're seeing every day in American all in the name of pushing the Zionist narratives. Instead, he's bending over backwards trying to poo poo on any suggesting, no matter what the evidence is, that western media is overtly pro-Israel.
Yep, here’s the personal butthurt that underlies this entire post so far: Res was mean to me months ago and and so he’s something, something, something. Waaah!!! Look at him not discussing a subject that I’m introducing for the first time in the thread.
Jesus Christ. Get a grip.
Although employers can hire whomever they choose, I thinks those that withdrew offers or fired lawyers over their political stance on I/P were wrong to do so. If I had had a job offer from any of those firms, I would have rejected it. Had I been employed there, I would have lobbied to restore the offers. If they weren’t, I’d have found a new employer.
You haven’t shown that Palestinian Journalists are being fired left and right. That’s more of your hysterical overreaction. The media are reporting daily on the atrocities being committed by Israel in Gaza.
And it’s simply false that every criticism of Israel is considered anti-Semitic. Pick up and read a national newspaper or watch more than a snippet of TV and you’ll see plenty of criticism of Israel. I don’t think I’ve responded to any of your criticisms of Israel as being anti-Semitic. I’ve responded your false claim about US media as unintentionally feeding a classic anti-Semitic trope.
I gotta call CFR on your insinuation that protesters are being arrested because they are pro-Palestine. If police were arresting protesters based on the content of their speech, that would indeed be a violation of the First Amendment. But the First Amendment allows the government to place reasonable restrictions on time, place, and manner, including permit requirements for protests.
If you are part of an unpermitted protest and you ignore an order to disperse, yes, you can end up in jail. If you block roads or sidewalks and prevent people from using them, you can be arrested. If you commit a crime while protesting, you can be arrested. Hell, the whole concept of civil disobedience is based on breaking the law.
For you to accuse me of some kind of hypocrisy for criticizing something you posted months ago about the media but not something about jailing protesters, which you’ve just brought up for the first time is disingenuous as hell. It is just another example of you getting butthurt when someone criticizes something you say and then nursing that butthurt forever, as well as taking any criticism of things you post as a personal affront and responding with a volley of personal attacks.
This is the same B.S. we got after 9/11 when nobody wanted to do the actual work required to figure out why we were attacked. Instead, the media narrative felt comfortable with, "They hate our freedoms." So America responded by planting as many American flags as they could around their homes, on their cars, etc. No, those terrorists didn't martyr themselves because they envy us over our freedoms. And no, Hamas isn't attacking Israel because they are just born evil and don't care about life. They're not doing it because of anything their religion tells them. That's the lazy way of explaining things and I'm sick and tired of hearing "pundits" on our airwaves pushing this horse crap. This idea that anyone can defeat Hamas with weapons of wars is ridiculous. The more Palestinians you oppress and murder the more future Hamas recruits you end up creating. We refuse to learn any lessons from the past, and we have lost our moral compass completely when we not only ignore the genocide being committed by Israel, but support and fund it.
I agree with you 100% on your criticism of “they hate us for our freedom” after 9/11. It was pure BS and the kind of oversimplification that prevents the kind of critical (including self-critical) analysis that is needed to solve the problem.
I also reject, for the same reasons you do, the popular tropes applied to Hamas and to Palestinians. My opinion is that, if we want to reduce violence in that part of the world, we have to stop arguing about who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. We need to take causation seriously, rather as a tool for blame games.
I think the US has to restructure its relationship with Israel. As long as the West Bank and Gaza are failed states, they will be havens for terrorists because the Palestinians have no functional government. Yet, the Likud policy has been to actively keep both as failed states. The US should not be financing those efforts.
I don’t believe single state can work because of the decades of animosity that have built up between the sides. I don’t trust either side to insure the civil rights of the other and I would expect continued tourism by whoever was not in power.
If I’m right, then two-state is the only practical solution we’ve got. And I think that US aid to Israel should be tied to concrete steps designed to lead to a two-state solution That includes a functional Palestinian state. That’s going to require a tougher stance with Israel. And, whichever President spearheads the initiative, he better not plan on getting re-elected. If Biden wins a second term, he might be able to make some progress.
At some point we as a nation need to look in the mirror and ask ourselves why the fuq we keep treating Israel differently. Why do we keep funding them and then turn a blind eye to all of their recklessness that we've never tolerate from any other country? Americans are getting fed up. Biden is seeing numerous people resign because they're against his support for these killings and refuses to put any limits on Israel's war crimes.
How many have resigned? Regardless, I don’t think the President Biden should base our foreign policy on resignations or popularity. Biden tried to keep the situation under control through a public show of support combined with private arm twisting. It looks like he’s pivoting away from that. The House hasn’t exactly rushed to send Israel more money. I’m hoping any additional funds will have serious strings them.
But I guess this is to be expected from our country that has turned a blind eye whenever Israel has killed American citizens.
Yeah. Rather than discuss possible solutions, let’s just throw gasoline on the fire.
