The Nehor

[Physics Guy]

The medieval Christian list recognised four "cardinal" virtues, which were acknowledged as having been known and practised by pagans: prudence, fortitude, justice, temperance. To make up the magic number of seven, they added three "theological virtues": faith, hope, and charity.

I've never been very clear on the distinction between faith and hope. Hope seems like a subset of faith—but I wouldn't volunteer to debate a medieval theologian on this. They'd probably run rings around me.

The top dog, one-ring-to-rule-them-all virtue was charity.

[ajax18]

I'm well aware of your views on same-sex attraction--I was curious about the 'becoming Gods' belief.

Yeah, you're reading me wrong.

God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are one. But that doesn't mean they are not three separate individuals. Same gender attraction is an affliction that will not exist in resurrected bodies. Anyone who suffered from same gender attraction on earth will have the opportunity to enjoy heterosexual bonds in heaven if they are able to overcome their desires on earth and prove worthy of a Celestial resurrected body.

We're all individuals who walk different paths to salvation and exaltation or damnation here on earth. Is it unfair to be born with same gender attaction? No more than it's unfair to be born with autism or to be paralyzed in a traffic accident. I don't believe there will be resurrected bodies will be paralyzed, mentally retarded, or missing a limb. We'll be made whole. And through Jesus Christ, all inequities and seeming unfairness can be compensated in eternity.

[Gadianton]

It reads like you measure procreation in the hereafter as the prime benefit of godhood. If that's the case, it seems like heaven is gong to be all about a contraction, rather than an expansion, of Earthy benefits. Most here on earth are afforded the opportunity to have sex--but in heaven, only you, and those like you, will be given the opportunity to do so. So, maybe becoming a god means getting to continue, on a grander scale, the things you did on Earth, all while stopping those other folks from enjoying the same pleasures.

I think that's about right. Has Ajax ever thought about polygamy, and how polygamy just incidentally allowed Joseph Smith and Brigham, and a few others, to get around the rule that prevents indiscriminate coitus in this life?

There is the social dimension, but also an economic one and the Celestial realm realizes the decoupling of these dimensions. The celestial model is one where all resource constraints have been lifted for the Gods, and they are essentially an invasive species to a universe, or multiverse, that has inexhaustible resources. The lower kingdoms are kept caged and alive by fiat of the Gods for no economic reasons, only social ones. And the wall that prevents the lower kingdoms from getting in can't be cut with a sawz-all. Unlike earthly kingdoms where royalty lives in privilege, riding the backs of the conquered, the lower kingdoms are of no material benefit to the Gods. The Gods are all powerful, and create earths by their own, individual powers. The social mirror to this life is a simulation of this life, not driven by natural laws, but by administrative fiat of the omnipotent rulers. The arrangement makes no economic sense whatsoever, its a story that would be infinitely confusing to anyone who didn't know the material backdrop of the Gods from their mortal days.

In the story, the Gods must populate universes. With the natural constraints lifted, which probably is what drove coitus to be so instantaneously gratifying in the first place -- just as the rich tastes of sugars and fats pace their caloric densities -- the Gods are burdened only to push that button all they want, as it will never be enough. Whether they get one wife, or multiple wives, they must have sex billions and billions of times just to create the spirits that will populate a single planet; and they shall create worlds without ends. They can eat as much ice cream as they want without gaining a pound. Only people who the Gods are comfortable with just happen to fit the bill for living in their administrative city. No gays, for example, and it's all whites. True, people of other colors can be saved and achieve the highest degree of glory, but once they achieve it, they will become white, and live lives exactly like Ajax does.

[Gadianton]

I used to be a very believing Mormon. The first chapter of the Book of Moses includes God showing him all of creation and leaving him overwhelmed by the sheer immensity of it compared to which he sees his own nothingness. But he then repositions his perspective when Satan attempts to use that sense of ego deflation to get him to worship him in exchange for power. As a believing member, I found that chapter inspiring.

Anyway. Carry on.

There are those unstable threads in the Mormon story that could pull it apart if pulled at too much.

[honorentheos]

I'm well aware of your views on same-sex attraction--I was curious about the 'becoming Gods' belief.

Yeah, you're reading me wrong.

God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are one. But that doesn't mean they are not three separate individuals. Same gender attraction is an affliction that will not exist in resurrected bodies. Anyone who suffered from same gender attraction on earth will have the opportunity to enjoy heterosexual bonds in heaven if they are able to overcome their desires on earth and prove worthy of a Celestial resurrected body.

Ajax,

I hope we agree that there are consequences for real people when a person chooses to act based on the belief you describe. I hope you at least see that the people on the receiving end often experience them as negative, too.

So what is the empirical evidence for your beliefs that justified choosing to treat someone in way that causes them harm? I get that you could argue, "If what is claimed is true, then what they experinece as a consequence is not harmful but ultimately helpful."

But you have to begin that with "If". The harm? That's not in question.

[honorentheos]

I used to be a very believing Mormon. The first chapter of the Book of Moses includes God showing him all of creation and leaving him overwhelmed by the sheer immensity of it compared to which he sees his own nothingness. But he then repositions his perspective when Satan attempts to use that sense of ego deflation to get him to worship him in exchange for power. As a believing member, I found that chapter inspiring.

Anyway. Carry on.

There are those unstable threads in the Mormon story that could pull it apart if pulled at too much.

I had some thoughts come to mind but I'd be interested to hear you elaborate on this?

[Morley]

The medieval Christian list recognised four "cardinal" virtues, which were acknowledged as having been known and practised by pagans: prudence, fortitude, justice, temperance. To make up the magic number of seven, they added three "theological virtues": faith, hope, and charity.

I've never been very clear on the distinction between faith and hope. Hope seems like a subset of faith—but I wouldn't volunteer to debate a medieval theologian on this. They'd probably run rings around me.

The top dog, one-ring-to-rule-them-all virtue was charity.

Thank you for your gentle correction, PhG. As I should have done before I posted, I had to go look this up. I'd thought there were only the four cardinal virtues of prudence, fortitude, justice, temperance, that you listed. I knew there were the alternate capital virtues of chastity, humility, temperance, diligence, patience, kindness, and charity (though to make sure I got them right, I had to look that up, too).

Damned faith and hope--ruining my party and revealing my bias against them, once again.

[Morley]

It reads like you measure procreation in the hereafter as the prime benefit of godhood. If that's the case, it seems like heaven is gong to be all about a contraction, rather than an expansion, of Earthy benefits. Most here on earth are afforded the opportunity to have sex--but in heaven, only you, and those like you, will be given the opportunity to do so. So, maybe becoming a god means getting to continue, on a grander scale, the things you did on Earth, all while stopping those other folks from enjoying the same pleasures.

I think that's about right. Has Ajax ever thought about polygamy, and how polygamy just incidentally allowed Joseph Smith and Brigham, and a few others, to get around the rule that prevents indiscriminate coitus in this life?

There is the social dimension, but also an economic one and the Celestial realm realizes the decoupling of these dimensions. The celestial model is one where all resource constraints have been lifted for the Gods, and they are essentially an invasive species to a universe, or multiverse, that has inexhaustible resources. The lower kingdoms are kept caged and alive by fiat of the Gods for no economic reasons, only social ones. And the wall that prevents the lower kingdoms from getting in can't be cut with a sawz-all. Unlike earthly kingdoms where royalty lives in privilege, riding the backs of the conquered, the lower kingdoms are of no material benefit to the Gods. The Gods are all powerful, and create earths by their own, individual powers. The social mirror to this life is a simulation of this life, not driven by natural laws, but by administrative fiat of the omnipotent rulers. The arrangement makes no economic sense whatsoever, its a story that would be infinitely confusing to anyone who didn't know the material backdrop of the Gods from their mortal days.

In the story, the Gods must populate universes. With the natural constraints lifted, which probably is what drove coitus to be so instantaneously gratifying in the first place -- just as the rich tastes of sugars and fats pace their caloric densities -- the Gods are burdened only to push that button all they want, as it will never be enough. Whether they get one wife, or multiple wives, they must have sex billions and billions of times just to create the spirits that will populate a single planet; and they shall create worlds without ends. They can eat as much ice cream as they want without gaining a pound. Only people who the Gods are comfortable with just happen to fit the bill for living in their administrative city. No gays, for example, and it's all whites. True, people of other colors can be saved and achieve the highest degree of glory, but once they achieve it, they will become white, and live lives exactly like Ajax does.

Perfection in the Mormon version of the Celestial Kingdom would, of necessity, require a kind of homogenization of personality, intellect, and form. If one set of gods were smarter, darker, more collegial, filled with greater ambition, or had fuller heads of hair than the others--then those traits would be passed on to the distinct advantage of their offspring. There would be inevitable, heavenly wars among beings and populations with different levels of charm and omnipotence.

Besides that, this homogenization of traits would certainly lead to everything becoming hopelessly boring. Endless sex would indeed seem to be an endless task, with all the women and men possessing the same flawless noses, perfect pout, and low percentage of body fat—with the same catwalk gait and white, even, shiny teeth. No amount of roleplaying as Catholic school girls or musclebound pool boys would liven up the action--because everyone's incredible good looks and ability to roleplay would all be the same. And would stay the same for eternity.

[canpakes]

We're here on earth to prove our ability to exercise a simple childlike faith and develop those kind of virtues, not to figure out the origin of the universe through physics.

This argument seems to want to claim that God created man as the most complex and intellectually-capable creature so that man could then toss his brain out the window in favor of making a random choice on a random religion.

Granted having sex with men makes me want to puke.

Please take my advice with a grain of salt, but I’d say that you should have less sex with men.

[Gunnar]

is approximately on the same cognizant level as insisting that the world is flat and the center around which the rest of the universe rotates!

Moses probably believed that and yet He is a god now. We're here on earth to prove our ability to exercise a simple childlike faith and develop those kind of virtues, not to figure out the origin of the universe through physics. As difficult as this world can be, all you need is a simple faith in Christ to overcome it. Everybody has access to this faith but only a few will be able to shut out the voice of Satan which sayeth, "No you're wrong. You're an idiot. Christ never rose from the dead. We all cease to exist after death."

I agree with canpakes that a rational or loving God would not have created us with all our intellectual potential only to "prove our ability to exercise a simple childlike faith..." and "not to try to figure out the origin of the universe and how it works through physics", math and science. I think such a God would be very disappointed in mankind if we were so vacuous and mentally lazy as to do nothing but exercise a simple childlike and unquestioning faith. Too many religious people are content only with relying on faith in the holy scriptures without critically questioning them or anything else they already know or think they know.

There is nothing wrong with reading and familiarizing oneself with The Bible, and it would be irrational to deny that there is anything worthwhile to be gained by doing so, because it so much a part of our culture, but it is at least equally foolish to conclude that every word in the Bible is absolutely true and inerrant. It contains both history and mythology, both truth and fiction, both wisdom and nonsense. But it is very far from established beyond all reasonable doubt that it is any more or less the work of potentially fallible humans alone than anything else that has ever been written.

Sometimes it contains both wisdom and nonsense within the same paragraph or sentence. My favorite example of this is Hebrews 11:1 from the King James version of The Bible: "“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” I can accept the "...substance of things hoped for..." part, but I totally reject the "...evidence of things not seen..." part. I don't deny that faith has any utility or importance, but faith, by itself, is not evidence nor an acceptable substitute for evidence.

Faith is what motivates us to act on what we know, or think we know. Without it we would probably not accomplish anything significant, whether good or bad, but faith unrestrained by sound evidence and reason can lead to disastrous or evil results. Hitler certainly had faith in his vision of conquering the world, and bank robbers and murderers probably have faith that they can profitably get away it without getting caught, else they wouldn't try it.

I like to liken this to a place value numerical notation system, like in binary arithmetic using 1s and 0s. "1" represents the value of one, while "0" represents the value of zero or nothing. If we add a "0" to the right of a "1" we get "10", the binary equivalent of two, twice the value of "1" by itself. But if we have only a "1" , we still have something tangible. But if we have only "0", we have nothing, no matter how many zeros we have. In this analogy, I give evidence and reason a value of one, and faith a value of zero. If we have both evidence and faith, we arguably have more (sometimes much more) than if we have sound evidence and reason alone, but without the "one" of evidence and reason, we have essentially nothing, no matter how much faith or belief we have.

Perhaps you will like Albert Einsteins analogy better: "Reason without faith is lame, but faith without reason is blind." If I had to choose only one of those two alternatives, I would rather be lame than blind! Yet, I acknowledge that it would be better to have both evidence and faith than either one alone.