Are people really basically good?

[ajax18]

and almost as sad as people using such stories to push their political agendas

Who said anything about politics in this story? Your point and Gad's point is that Christianity is source of murder, war, etc. What exactly have the results of atheism (Russia), Islam (Palestine), and no religious upbringing (liberal democrat black communities) been?

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]and no religious upbringing (liberal democrat black communities) been?

Black Americans are overwhelmingly Christian, and in comparison to white Americans, have a very (very) small percentage that have no belief in God. In fact, black Americans are Christian at a higher rate that the general population.

If the Republican Party could figure out a way to not be perpetually racist, and antagonistic to people of color, they could easily tap into the overwhelmingly conservative black American and Hispanic Christian populous. The big Pew dilly a few years back had almost 80% of black Americans as Christian, compared to about 70% of white Americans. (Pew Dilly Link)

To the question of the thread... I personally do think that there are people who are "good" or "bad" at their core. I think that there are some people who could be put through the most dehumanizing experiences imaginable, and come out the other side still advocating for kindness and humanity. Conversely, I think there are some people that can be afforded every opportunity to emulate kindness and goodness, and still end up pulled towards acting out their sociopathic fantasies on the innocent.

Overall, I think we're largely products of our environments, and to some extent that environmental impact on us can be passed on generationally. There are obviously outliers, but one need only look at recent world history to see the atrocities that "Christian" (or other stereotypically "good" religious communities) will commit or tolerate when properly conditioned. One need only look back a single generation in America to find abhorrent atrocities by so-called "good, Christian" people, that were tolerated to the extent that even the most basic criminal laws were thrown to the wind.

One of the most dangerous things, I think, that can lead otherwise "good" people to do horrible things is "othering." Once you are able to make someone see a given group, or person, as something different than them, all kinds of horrible things can be done without empathy getting in the way.

A while back, Dr. Bokovoy made a comment on Facebook (hopefully I'm not breaking any rules, as I think it was a public comment) that I think is relevant, and that caused me to do some reflecting. For those who don't know, Dr. Bokovoy works with providing and overseeing education for inmates in northern Utah. Paraphrasing: There are no bad people, just choices. Bad choices do not necessarily mean that the person is bad. I disagree somewhat, but I'm not sure if my disagreement is based on anything more than my heart doesn't have the capacity for compassion and forgiveness that Dr. Bokovoy's does.

[Res Ipsa]

Crap like this happens more often than any of us would like to admit and it is tragic and despicable, and almost as sad as people using such stories to push their political agendas.

Maybe more than any of the liberal media would ever admit. Why didn't this video go viral and spark a nationwide protest with over 10 deaths and $2 billion in property damage? Oh yes, because the suspects are black, hence it's not newsworthy. Nothing to see here, better to bury this story.

That's racism you're showing, Ajax18. The riots that occurred were because the perpetrators of violence were law enforcement -- agents of the government. Some of those perpetrators were black, yet their violence against black folks was protested right along with violence perpetrated by white folks.

[ajax18]

Black Americans are overwhelmingly Christian, and in comparison to white Americans

So do you think Christianity is responsible for so many black children having to raise themselves? Is Christianity what motivated these eight individuals?

One of the most dangerous things, I think, that can lead otherwise "good" people to do horrible things is "othering." Once you are able to make someone see a given group, or person, as something different than them, all kinds of horrible things can be done without empathy getting in the way.

Do you think othering caused these individuals to commit this crime. Wasn't the victim also black and likely someone they knew most her short life?

Bad choices do not necessarily mean that the person is bad. I disagree somewhat, but I'm not sure if my disagreement is based on anything more than my heart doesn't have the capacity for compassion and forgiveness that Dr. Bokovoy's does.

Perhaps these 8 individuals are used to having people like Dr. Bokovoy in charge and hence were so rightfully unconcerned with any consequences to being caught that they were comfortable filming their atrocities similar to the way in which Hamas was happy to film their atrocities and post them for all the world to see. Ultimately they can always work the blame back around such that it is cast upon the Jews they raped and slaughtered. For these eight individuals, it may take more time, but they'll eventually work the blame back on to white America and their failure to provide sufficient welfare benefits for those who would rather not work. After all, you can't blame these eight individuals because they're just products of their environment and you can't blame the black community and the culture they grew up in because that would be racist.

Therapeutic jurisprudence will put these 8 individuals back on the street long before the political prisoners who were peacefully led through the capital building on January 6. Our justice system is far more concerned with persecuting and prosecuting their political opponents than they are with petty concerns of this victims family.

[Doctor Steuss]

Black Americans are overwhelmingly Christian, and in comparison to white Americans

So do you think Christianity is responsible for so many black children having to raise themselves? Is Christianity what motivated these eight individuals?

No. Christianity very much likely will be why they feel no personal accountability though, and think they are forgiven for doing these atrocities, and will spend eternity in heaven alongside people who haven't committed similar sins.

Do you think othering caused these individuals to commit this crime. Wasn't the victim also black and likely someone they knew most her short life?

I don't know all of the ins and outs, but the othering that is caused by American patriarchy and misogyny could have potentially played a role. It's hard for me to put myself in the "headspace" of someone who could do this type of thing to another human, regardless of race, gender, sex, religion, etc.

[ajax18]

No. Christianity very much likely will be why they feel no personal accountability though, and think they are forgiven for doing these atrocities, and will spend eternity in heaven alongside people who haven't committed similar sins.

Now I will totally agree with you on that. You're talking about evangelical Christianity and sadly more than a few Mormons as well. I have big problems with that interpretation of Christianity. In fact I'd say Satan is the author of that view of repentance, not Christ.

I don't know all of the ins and outs, but the othering that is caused by American patriarchy and misogyny could have potentially played a role.

But only white patriarchy and misogyny and due to southern white culture right? Surely it's not possible for a black man to be misogynist? And how do you explain the black women watching this and taking part in beating this young mother before putting a bullet in the back of her head?

It's hard for me to put myself in the "headspace" of someone who could do this type of thing to another human, regardless of race, gender, sex, religion, etc.

It is for most people in Western culture. We make the false assumption that all cultures are morally equal. Hamas doesn't really want to exterminate and torture the Jews. It's just a territorial dispute. Israel must have done something to deserve what Hamas is doing to them.

[Doctor Steuss]

But only white patriarchy and misogyny and due to southern white culture right? Surely it's not possible for a black man to be misogynist?

I don't know why you're asking these silly questions. The patriarchy and misogyny that is ingrained in many facets of American culture isn't race specific. There are types of machismo misogyny that are found in various flavors in all subsets of American culture.

And how do explain the black women watching this and taking part in beating this young mother before putting a bullet in the back of her head?

I wouldn't think it needs explaining. This is like asking to explain why black police officers engage in the same systemic racism as white police officers.

The answer is in the institution and ideology itself. Chromosomes and melanin don't imbue some special kinds of powers to be immune from the social and psychological things that everyone is susceptible to.

[ajax18]

But only white patriarchy and misogyny and due to southern white culture right? Surely it's not possible for a black man to be misogynist?

I don't know why you're asking these silly questions. The patriarchy and misogyny that is ingrained in many facets of American culture isn't race specific. There are types of machismo misogyny that are found in various flavors in all subsets of American culture.

And how do explain the black women watching this and taking part in beating this young mother before putting a bullet in the back of her head?

I wouldn't think it needs explaining. This is like asking to explain why black police officers engage in the same systemic racism as white police officers.

The answer is in the institution and ideology itself. Chromosomes and melanin don't imbue some special kinds of powers to be immune from the social and psychological things that everyone is susceptible to.

I think seeing their peers let off easy for similar offenses by the liberal controlled justice system and the media helping them shift any blame and personal responsibility for their actions had far more influence on these eight individuals than anything written in the Old Testament about the patriarchy.

[Doctor Steuss]

I think seeing their peers let off easy for similar offenses by the liberal controlled justice system and the media helping them shift any blame and personal responsibility for their actions had far more influence on these eight individuals than anything written in the Old Testament about the patriarchy.

I'd sure be interested in the examples you have of of other instances of torture, rape, and murder in Alabama where the black perpetrators were sentenced with slaps on the wrist.

Incidentally, these are state/federal crimes, and will likely be tried in district. Are you saying that the Republican Governor, and Republican Senators, and the 6 out of 7 Republican Congressional Representatives of Alabama have established a liberal justice system that's soft on crime in their state? Those RINOS are sure a rascally bunch.

Seems the only answer is to get out of this mess is to vote Democrat.

[Res Ipsa]

[...]and no religious upbringing (liberal democrat black communities) been?

Black Americans are overwhelmingly Christian, and in comparison to white Americans, have a very (very) small percentage that have no belief in God. In fact, black Americans are Christian at a higher rate that the general population.

If the Republican Party could figure out a way to not be perpetually racist, and antagonistic to people of color, they could easily tap into the overwhelmingly conservative black American and Hispanic Christian populous. The big Pew dilly a few years back had almost 80% of black Americans as Christian, compared to about 70% of white Americans. (Pew Dilly Link)

To the question of the thread... I personally do think that there are people who are "good" or "bad" at their core. I think that there are some people who could be put through the most dehumanizing experiences imaginable, and come out the other side still advocating for kindness and humanity. Conversely, I think there are some people that can be afforded every opportunity to emulate kindness and goodness, and still end up pulled towards acting out their sociopathic fantasies on the innocent.

Overall, I think we're largely products of our environments, and to some extent that environmental impact on us can be passed on generationally. There are obviously outliers, but one need only look at recent world history to see the atrocities that "Christian" (or other stereotypically "good" religious communities) will commit or tolerate when properly conditioned. One need only look back a single generation in America to find abhorrent atrocities by so-called "good, Christian" people, that were tolerated to the extent that even the most basic criminal laws were thrown to the wind.

One of the most dangerous things, I think, that can lead otherwise "good" people to do horrible things is "othering." Once you are able to make someone see a given group, or person, as something different than them, all kinds of horrible things can be done without empathy getting in the way.

A while back, Dr. Bokovoy made a comment on Facebook (hopefully I'm not breaking any rules, as I think it was a public comment) that I think is relevant, and that caused me to do some reflecting. For those who don't know, Dr. Bokovoy works with providing and overseeing education for inmates in northern Utah. Paraphrasing: There are no bad people, just choices. Bad choices do not necessarily mean that the person is bad. I disagree somewhat, but I'm not sure if my disagreement is based on anything more than my heart doesn't have the capacity for compassion and forgiveness that Dr. Bokovoy's does.

No rule broken.

What Dr. Bokovoy said reminds me of the cognitive bias called fundamental attribution error. When we see someone else do something bad, we assign the "badness" to their nature. When we do bad things, we point out all of the contingent circumstances that led us to make a bad choice. What Dr. Bokovy is doing is similar to saying "extend the same benefit of the doubt to others that you extend to yourself."

Ajax has absolutely no idea what led the perpetrators to commit a horrible act of violence. He's just presenting his delusional view of the world as fact. We've talked about the studies of race and the judicial system that show that black suspects are treated more harshly at every stage of the process. Ajax just throws those down the memory hole in favor of his white victim mythology.