Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

[Morley]

If faith is good enough for you to base your opinion on, then it should also be good enough to work as an argument. Putting forth half-baked theories and flawed propositions, ones that you yourself think might be damaged or stillborn, reeks of desperation and convinces nobody.

If I was to do what you’re asking I wouldn’t have anything to offer.

Indeed.

[Res Ipsa]

If faith is good enough for you to base your opinion on, then it should also be good enough to work as an argument. Putting forth half-baked theories and flawed propositions, ones that you yourself think might be damaged or stillborn, reeks of desperation and convinces nobody.

If I was to do what you’re asking I wouldn’t have anything to offer.

Indeed.

What a dismal view of faith.

[MG 2.0]

If faith is good enough for you to base your opinion on, then it should also be good enough to work as an argument. Putting forth half-baked theories and flawed propositions, ones that you yourself think might be damaged or stillborn, reeks of desperation and convinces nobody.

If I was to do what you’re asking I wouldn’t have anything to offer.

Indeed.

I was being facetious.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

If I understand the essence of what Res is saying, I think that he's urging you to go ahead and make the full-throated defenses of Mormonism that you wish to make. He's just venturing that these arguments would be more effective if you didn't try to cloak them in bad citations, the pretense of logic, or half-understood science. If faith is good enough for you to base your opinion on, then it should also be good enough to work as an argument. Putting forth half-baked theories and flawed propositions, ones that you yourself think might be damaged or stillborn, reeks of desperation and convinces nobody.

Not even himself, methinks.

I know what you folks would like to think. The truth is, what you see as bad citations, pretense of logic, or half understood science are me giving my ‘best shot’. We’re all learning…at least I am. I know full well that what I’m saying to you might sound illogical. And that according to the rules of logic it may very well be at times. No one here has a corner on complete understanding in regards to science. I have read a number of “half baked theories” on this board which at the time were more or less considered to be ‘smoking guns’ against the church. Then we find out that they’re not fully substantiated and folks were jumping the gun.

I will at times put forth an idea or proposition that I am personally interested in getting responses in opposition. It helps me and others to sharpen their intellect and understanding. The problem, as I see it, is when anyone of us think we have a corner on the market when it comes to perfected logical arguments, 100 percent accurate sources/information, fully understood scientific research/principles, or fully formed and squeaky clean propositions.

Sure, it’s easy for you to make accusations and make light of someone that doesn’t have a similar worldview to yours. I get it. You’re protecting yourself and your tribe. We all do it.

IHQ, since you’re challenging me in questioning whether or not I truly believe in the gospel/church/scriptures I think it is appropriate for me to respond.

I do have faith in and believe that the CofJCofLDS is God’s Kingdom on earth. That it has been restored through the instrumentality of the Prophet Joseph Smith. That the keys of authority which came to him now reside in President Russell M. Nelson. The Plan of Salvation and Exaltation is real and we continue to progress and exist as individuals after we die. Jesus Christ atoned for our sins and did that which no other could do. He was the spotless and perfect example for us to follow. The Priesthood has been restored and those men who have received it and live worthily hold the keys of blessing their own families and lead them in righteousness. God lives. Jesus is the Christ. The first principles and ordinances of the gospel bring us to the Covenant Path that will guide us towards salvation and exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom if we prove worthy. Satan is real. Evil is real. We are being tried and tested to see if we will stay true to what we’ve been given. To whom much is given, much is expected.

Does that help clarify things for you?

Normally I wouldn’t bear my testimony on this board, but I feel as though it is appropriate and necessary to respond to you in this fashion.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I’ve learned a few things from Res Ipsa.

God help you.

And you also.

Regards,
MG

[hauslern]

Dan Peterson's favourite mode of humour. "In other words I think you are stupid"

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/4bc1ab04-b ... ef46e7c541

[MG 2.0]

Was it hard for you when your dad decided Mormonism wasn’t for him?

He’s always been a seeker. When we were kids he went back to school at UCLA and received a doctorate in the neurosciences. He ended up doing brain research there at the university and teaching in the college system there in Southern California. During that time and thereafter having done LDS history research the old fashioned way at the Huntington Library and in other venues he gradually became a non believer. More or less a materialist in its strictest sense I think.

Later in life he moved towards a belief in reality that exists outside the material world we live in, but not a believer in Mormonism or traditional Christianity. He more or less thinks that we live in a world that is of our own making, that we can’t really be sure of anything beyond knowing that we are conscious.

So our talks have been over decades. To answer your question, I can’t say that it was “hard on me” because it was just part of my life from a young age. I probably didn’t fully understand the extent of his non belief until I returned from my mission and went to BYU.

Our family has had others that have left the church and those that have remained. A mixed bag.

I’ve been exposed to alternative views and ways of looking at ‘the world’ from the time I was a teenager. So I have to chuckle a bit when I get the impression that some folks here seem to think I was ‘born yesterday’, so to speak.

I’ve been around the block, albeit from a position of reading and learning over decades on my own without any special academic training. And that probably shows.

Just a regular guy.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

MG,

Do you believe in “sad heaven” or the concept that your loved ones who left the church will be in some way separated from you for eternity?

That seems to be a very sad thing to consider, and very arbitrary on God’s part.

[MG 2.0]

MG,

Do you believe in “sad heaven” or the concept that your loved ones who left the church will be in some way separated from you for eternity?

That seems to be a very sad thing to consider, and very arbitrary on God’s part.

I’m willing to leave the ultimate answer to that question in God’s hands.

My personal feeling is that I will still have an association with family and others that I may have had relationships with in this life whether members of the church or not. And that I will make new associations.

Eternity is a long time.

And it is what it is.

I’m not too worried about the afterlife as much as I am in living the ‘good life’ in this one.

Regards,
MG

[Res Ipsa]

Was it hard for you when your dad decided Mormonism wasn’t for him?

He’s always been a seeker. When we were kids he went back to school at UCLA and received a doctorate in the neurosciences. He ended up doing brain research there at the university and teaching in the college system there in Southern California. During that time and thereafter having done LDS history research the old fashioned way at the Huntington Library and in other venues he gradually became a non believer. More or less a materialist in its strictest sense I think.

Later in life he moved towards a belief in reality that exists outside the material world we live in, but not a believer in Mormonism or traditional Christianity. He more or less thinks that we live in a world that is of our own making, that we can’t really be sure of anything beyond knowing that we are conscious.

So our talks have been over decades. To answer your question, I can’t say that it was “hard on me” because it was just part of my life from a young age. I probably didn’t fully understand the extent of his non belief until I returned from my mission and went to BYU.

Our family has had others that have left the church and those that have remained. A mixed bag.

I’ve been exposed to alternative views and ways of looking at ‘the world’ from the time I was a teenager. So I have to chuckle a bit when I get the impression that some folks here seem to think I was ‘born yesterday’, so to speak.

I’ve been around the block, albeit from a position of reading and learning over decades on my own without any special academic training. And that probably shows.

Just a regular guy.

Regards,
MG

Thanks. I'm glad to hear that his change in belief did not come between the two of you.