We Need to Go on Offense

[Gadianton]

Valo will soon commence item (c).

I hope he can focus on this work without getting distracted by jealousy over all the attention Terrance Howard is getting.

[Gunnar]

It's kind of an aside, but one of the funny things about displaying the Ten Commandments in school - not as funny as the over-the-top hypocrisy of top Christian republicans being the biggest offenders - but my interaction with born again Christians has typically been they have a great disdain for the Old Testament and especially the Law of Moses. Many Christians have a New Testament-only Bible. A big contention with Mormonism is that Mormons believe in salvation by works - by trying to obey the law. Jesus did away with that. Yes, technically, the 10 commandments are the law, but by the law, no flesh is justified. There is no point in even trying to obey the law. If you've broken one commandment, you've broken them all. There is no place in the born-again gospel for the Ten Commandments other than the historical fact that the law doesn't work. The only hope is to accept Jesus and be saved. There's literally no reason to talk about the Ten Commandments outside of this context, as it's literally impossible for anyone to live them, and it's sheer futility even trying to live them. In fact, the only thing more unbiblical than breaking the Ten Commandments is trying to live the Ten Commandments.

I see what you mean. By reading much of what fundamentalist Christians have read, I get the impression that what they are saying is that salvation by faith in Christ means that even trying to live the live the commandments and live a blameless life is actually an affront to God because this implies lack of faith in the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

[Kishkumen]

It's not enough to say you reject religious beliefs. These days, with the abhorrent threat of Christian Nationalism, we have to tell these people to put up or shut up. They have to prove their religion is objectively true, or shut the “F” up about it.

I think this is actually exactly the wrong approach. There is so much that human culture offers that can't be objectively proved, and the idea that objective proof will suddenly provide the litmus test for everything of our global civilizations that should be salvaged from a wasteland of irrationality is, in effect, a non-starter. What you will get from this is a magnification of the persecution complex that is already a problem, an excuse. I would prefer that Christians be better educated Christians than that we give them opportunities for symbolic martyrdom.

[Some Schmo]

The answer is obvious. The only way to get through to Christian Nationalists is to walk them through scripture and ask open ended questions, Schmo.

...

Anyway, the test monkey offer is open to you any time. I'm around...

Thanks, Jersey Girl. You're probably right.

I don't know the Bible well enough to use it in a debate against Christian Nationalism. All I know is that the Constitution forbids a government sponsored religion. This is an agnostic nation, not a Christian one.

[Some Schmo]

It's not enough to say you reject religious beliefs. These days, with the abhorrent threat of Christian Nationalism, we have to tell these people to put up or shut up. They have to prove their religion is objectively true, or shut the “F” up about it.

I think this is actually exactly the wrong approach. There is so much that human culture offers that can't be objectively proved, and the idea that objective proof will suddenly provide the litmus test for everything of our global civilizations that should be salvaged from a wasteland of irrationality is, in effect, a non-starter. What you will get from this is a magnification of the persecution complex that is already a problem, an excuse. I would prefer that Christians be better educated Christians than that we give them opportunities for symbolic martyrdom.

This is likely true, and it makes me despair because I don't have the stuff it takes to patiently walk people through their irrational beliefs. I don't live in that space. I find leaps of faith frustrating to think about, and just want to scream, "You don't have good reasons to believe that's true!"

The real problem is that I look at this from an intellectual standpoint, but I'm dealing with people's feelings, which are impervious to intellectual thought. I'm guessing that's why the only way to get people to see that they're in a cult is to love them out of it, or so I've heard.

[Gadianton]

Yesterday just before my post, I had my first fight in a long time with my right-wing friend. It was totally my fault this time, at least in the sense that I was the one who brought up politics. He had brought up one of his ideas about science and I was getting irritated. The irritation stems from his supreme arrogance in believing his own made-up ideas and there's no way to get through about his misunderstanding, and often his ideas are somehow associated with things he's come across in his right-wing emails to prove the Bible true. So I lost it, and said we should put a diagram of his idea on a poster board and set it next to the Ten Commandments in every school. I was wrong for more than one reason, but the primary reason is I'm pretty sure his angle wasn't even religious. His response was, "Well maybe if we put 'em where people can see 'em they'll start Livin 'em!" And I said, "You mean like Donald Trump?" To which he responded, "what about Joe Biden?! What about inflation? What about the border? I'm going to send all the illegals to your house!" and on and on, I told him to shut the F up and that was that.

So this morning I tried a different approach. Perhaps a tad more success but not really. I went the route of my previous post. We talked about salvation by grace and all that, and of course he was getting into it. So I asked him if it's possible to live the law -- because if it is, a person could in theory be saved that way. Of course he agrees nobody could live the law. So I asked him what good it was to put the Ten Commandments everywhere, if it's impossible to live them. What's the point? He didn't have a response, so I just asked him to talk about it with his pastor. Ask his pastor if he thinks we should display the Ten Commandments everywhere -- how many more people are going to successfully live the law if we do that?

Well, he agreed he didn't think his pastor would agree with putting the Ten Commandments everywhere. So I asked him where does this come from then? He doesn't know. I asked him if he'd heard of Christian Reconstructionism or the Von Mises Institute, and of course not. I explained the growing popularity of instituting Leviticus as the law of the land, unlikely though that it would ever really happen. He pointed out that his church allows everyone to come to church and there are several gays that go to his church. Of course, my friend is totally gay/trans phobic. He's conflicted on a lot of this stuff. I also know his pastor does a ton of charity work for Islam immigrants.

The closest I got getting him to see the point, was as he once again talked about how bad he was before he was a Christian (and he was even worse afterward, but I didn't remind him of that). So I asked him before he was a Christian, if someone forced him to put a huge copy of the Ten Commandments in his house, and told him, "you're going to obey these or else," how likely would that have been to lead him to Christ? Of course he had to admit it would backfire in a major way.

[huckelberry]

It's kind of an aside, but one of the funny things about displaying the Ten Commandments in school - not as funny as the over-the-top hypocrisy of top Christian republicans being the biggest offenders - but my interaction with born again Christians has typically been they have a great disdain for the Old Testament and especially the Law of Moses. Many Christians have a New Testament-only Bible. A big contention with Mormonism is that Mormons believe in salvation by works - by trying to obey the law. Jesus did away with that. Yes, technically, the 10 commandments are the law, but by the law, no flesh is justified. There is no point in even trying to obey the law. If you've broken one commandment, you've broken them all. There is no place in the born-again gospel for the Ten Commandments other than the historical fact that the law doesn't work. The only hope is to accept Jesus and be saved. There's literally no reason to talk about the Ten Commandments outside of this context, as it's literally impossible for anyone to live them, and it's sheer futility even trying to live them. In fact, the only thing more unbiblical than breaking the Ten Commandments is trying to live the Ten Commandments.

I see what you mean. By reading much of what fundamentalist Christians have read, I get the impression that what they are saying is that salvation by faith in Christ means that even trying to live the live the commandments and live a blameless life is actually an affront to God because this implies lack of faith in the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

Gunnar, I am really puzzled as to what you are reading. I am fairly familiar with Protestant teaching and thought. Perhaps I should realize my reading is rather traditional and I have not followed much real current material. To my rather traditional mind what you are saying is grossly heretical, a contradiction of basic beliefs. Yet I pause and think perhaps the sort of view you report is helpful for pressing Trump's politics or other more extreme versions of Christian fascism (likely Trump does not understand what sort of Christian fascists are hoping he is their power wedge).

I am hoping you can provide more information about what you have read. It could help better understanding of the current cultural weather.

Your comments put me in mind of some compound of white supremacists (KKK subgroup?) teaching why violence is needed to preserve a Christian America.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

The answer is obvious. The only way to get through to Christian Nationalists is to walk them through scripture and ask open ended questions, Schmo.

...

Anyway, the test monkey offer is open to you any time. I'm around...

Thanks, Jersey Girl. You're probably right.

I don't know the Bible well enough to use it in a debate against Christian Nationalism. All I know is that the Constitution forbids a government sponsored religion. This is an agnostic nation, not a Christian one.

Or show them things like this?

https://northdakotamonitor.com/2024/06/ ... sm-charge/

“Former North Dakota lawmaker to plead guilty to child sex tourism charge”

It’s literally all projection when they bark about cross dressers being pedos..

- Doc

[Kishkumen]

Yesterday just before my post, I had my first fight in a long time with my right-wing friend. It was totally my fault this time, at least in the sense that I was the one who brought up politics. He had brought up one of his ideas about science and I was getting irritated. The irritation stems from his supreme arrogance in believing his own made-up ideas and there's no way to get through about his misunderstanding, and often his ideas are somehow associated with things he's come across in his right-wing emails to prove the Bible true. So I lost it, and said we should put a diagram of his idea on a poster board and set it next to the Ten Commandments in every school. I was wrong for more than one reason, but the primary reason is I'm pretty sure his angle wasn't even religious. His response was, "Well maybe if we put 'em where people can see 'em they'll start Livin 'em!" And I said, "You mean like Donald Trump?" To which he responded, "what about Joe Biden?! What about inflation? What about the border? I'm going to send all the illegals to your house!" and on and on, I told him to shut the F up and that was that.

So this morning I tried a different approach. Perhaps a tad more success but not really. I went the route of my previous post. We talked about salvation by grace and all that, and of course he was getting into it. So I asked him if it's possible to live the law -- because if it is, a person could in theory be saved that way. Of course he agrees nobody could live the law. So I asked him what good it was to put the Ten Commandments everywhere, if it's impossible to live them. What's the point? He didn't have a response, so I just asked him to talk about it with his pastor. Ask his pastor if he thinks we should display the Ten Commandments everywhere -- how many more people are going to successfully live the law if we do that?

Well, he agreed he didn't think his pastor would agree with putting the Ten Commandments everywhere. So I asked him where does this come from then? He doesn't know. I asked him if he'd heard of Christian Reconstructionism or the Von Mises Institute, and of course not. I explained the growing popularity of instituting Leviticus as the law of the land, unlikely though that it would ever really happen. He pointed out that his church allows everyone to come to church and there are several gays that go to his church. Of course, my friend is totally gay/trans phobic. He's conflicted on a lot of this stuff. I also know his pastor does a ton of charity work for Islam immigrants.

The closest I got getting him to see the point, was as he once again talked about how bad he was before he was a Christian (and he was even worse afterward, but I didn't remind him of that). So I asked him before he was a Christian, if someone forced him to put a huge copy of the Ten Commandments in his house, and told him, "you're going to obey these or else," how likely would that have been to lead him to Christ? Of course he had to admit it would backfire in a major way.

Kudos, Dean. You have so much more patience than I could ever muster.

[Gunnar]

Gunnar, I am really puzzled as to what you are reading. I am fairly familiar with Protestant teaching and thought. Perhaps I should realize my reading is rather traditional and I have not followed much real current material. To my rather traditional mind what you are saying is grossly heretical, a contradiction of basic beliefs. Yet I pause and think perhaps the sort of view you report is helpful for pressing Trump's politics or other more extreme versions of Christian fascism (likely Trump does not understand what sort of Christian fascists are hoping he is their power wedge).

I am hoping you can provide more information about what you have read. It could help better understanding of the current cultural weather.

Your comments put me in mind of some compound of white supremacists (KKK subgroup?) teaching why violence is needed to preserve a Christian America.

I am talking about some of the most extreme religious fundamentalists I have read about. I'm not claiming that a majority of Christians feel this way, but there seems to be a tendency among the hardest right fundamentalists and evangelicals to discount or minimize the importance of good works, or even striving for them. Some "born again Christians", for example, seem to be claiming that once one has been "saved" by accepting the reality of Christ's atonement, it no longer matters what or how many sins one commits after that. One is then guaranteed acceptance into heaven and God's graces after death, no matter what.

A prime example of this seems to be Evangelicals' acceptance of Trump as a divinely God-sent savior, no matter what sins or crimes he is guilty of.