The Political Impact of Failed Assassination

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Binger
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Re: The Political Impact of Failed Assassination

Post by Binger »

ceeboo wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2024 3:54 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2024 2:46 pm
. I don't see much evidence to support a political motive.
I read that and froze - So I read it again.

An attempted assassination of a former US President at a political rally and "you don't see much evidence to support a political motive?"

I guess it's possible that you're right, but given the reality here, I would say it's around 99.9% that this was politically motivated.
While we often agree, we occasionally disagree. On this, we disagree.

I would say there is no evidence to suggest that this was politically motivated. None. I don't have that information and certainly can't piece enough information together to connect those dots.

I would, however, contend that the shooter was motivated or triggered by political rhetoric. Those are NOT the same things. I don't have perfect evidence of that, but his rage in the streets that is recorded and public has that rioting angry vibe to it. Also - there is the fact that he shot a US president and killed a person at a political rally. I can't argue that he was motivated to move the political landscape or achieve a political end. He was trying to kill people and probably had no interest in the outcome other than murder.
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Re: The Political Impact of Failed Assassination

Post by Kishkumen »

Binger wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2024 4:19 pm
I would, however, contend that the shooter was motivated or triggered by political rhetoric. Those are NOT the same things. I don't have perfect evidence of that, but his rage in the streets that is recorded and public has that rioting angry vibe to it. Also - there is the fact that he shot a US president and killed a person at a political rally. I can't argue that he was motivated to move the political landscape or achieve a political end. He was trying to kill people and probably had no interest in the outcome other than murder.
Hey, Binger. Thanks for chiming in here. Would you help me out by letting me know what this "rage in the streets" is you are talking about? I must have missed that, but it is difficult to keep up with the avalanche of little articles on Crooks. Thanks.
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Re: The Political Impact of Failed Assassination

Post by ceeboo »

Binger wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2024 4:19 pm
ceeboo wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2024 3:54 pm
I read that and froze - So I read it again.

An attempted assassination of a former US President at a political rally and "you don't see much evidence to support a political motive?"

I guess it's possible that you're right, but given the reality here, I would say it's around 99.9% that this was politically motivated.
While we often agree, we occasionally disagree. On this, we disagree.
No worries - I am very interested in your position.
I would say there is no evidence to suggest that this was politically motivated. None. I don't have that information and certainly can't piece enough information together to connect those dots.

I would, however, contend that the shooter was motivated or triggered by political rhetoric. Those are NOT the same things.
It's not the same thing? What kind of rhetoric is it? Political.

In other words, whatever motivated this person had something to do with politics and not something like Trump was screwing his mother or Trump was a Dodgers fan and was a Giants fan. It was political (rhetoric or not).

No? You disagree? I am not understanding your position?
He was trying to kill people and probably had no interest in the outcome other than murder.
He wasn't trying to kill people. He was trying to kill Trump and one of the bullets hit a bystander and was killed. If he was just trying to kill people, he probably would have gone to a shopping mall or something - I can't imagine him picking a Trump rally, a place with SS agents, and target Trump if this was the case.
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Re: The Political Impact of Failed Assassination

Post by Binger »

ceeboo wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2024 5:44 pm
Binger wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2024 4:19 pm
While we often agree, we occasionally disagree. On this, we disagree.
No worries - I am very interested in your position.
I would say there is no evidence to suggest that this was politically motivated. None. I don't have that information and certainly can't piece enough information together to connect those dots.

I would, however, contend that the shooter was motivated or triggered by political rhetoric. Those are NOT the same things.
It's not the same thing? What kind of rhetoric is it? Political.

In other words, whatever motivated this person had something to do with politics and not something like Trump was screwing his mother or Trump was a Dodgers fan and was a Giants fan. It was political (rhetoric or not).

No? You disagree? I am not understanding your position?
He was trying to kill people and probably had no interest in the outcome other than murder.
He wasn't trying to kill people. He was trying to kill Trump and one of the bullets hit a bystander and was killed. If he was just trying to kill people, he probably would have gone to a shopping mall or something - I can't imagine him picking a Trump rally, a place with SS agents, and target Trump if this was the case.
Let me use an example. Killing Kennedy specifically to prolong Vietnam's war is killing with a political motivation. Killing Kennedy because your neighbor said he was the a Catholic Nationalist, without any consideration of the outcome or a stake in the outcome, is reactionary killing without a political motivation. Killing with a political purpose, or benefit, or motivation is different that killing someone because of their politics.
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Re: The Political Impact of Failed Assassination

Post by ceeboo »

Binger wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:00 pm
Let me use an example. Killing Kennedy specifically to prolong Vietnam's war is killing with a political motivation. Killing Kennedy because your neighbor said he was the a Catholic Nationalist, without any consideration of the outcome or a stake in the outcome, is reactionary killing without a political motivation. Killing with a political purpose, or benefit, or motivation is different that killing someone because of their politics.
Understood. Thanks for taking the time to elaborate.
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Re: The Political Impact of Failed Assassination

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Kishkumen wrote:He is saying that the profile of the shooter is much closer to that of a school shooter than I political shooter. I would say in his departure from the political shooter model he is comparable to with Reagan's shooter Hinckley. Hinckley seems not to have had a political beef with Reagan. Instead he was seeking to grab the attention of a famous actor.

I think it is entirely possible that a Biden rally on the same day, at the same time, and in the same location, might have resulted in an injured Biden. I don't see much evidence to support a political motive.
Yeah, for the most part. This was a school shooting. The "cool kids" just happen to be politicians. I think it's pretty ridiculous he'd be fired up over threats to democracy when that democracy wasn't for him. It was for other people. Trying to extract anything of significance out of a 15 dollar donation when compared to four years of isolation and getting bullied is absurd. Same for registering Republican. Meaningless compared to all the rejection inputs. I think he would have been biased against the right because he resonated with gun culture which probably included survivalist paranoia, but in the end, there wasn't a place for him in that village. You know the saying, "the child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth."

I'm open to being wrong, and here's some things that could change my mind. The first thing would be diaries or extensive social media indicating active political fantasies. If he had some second life filled with Kaczynski paranoia and the culmination of that was a significant action he must take, then that might be enough to consider it political. He was quite intelligent so it's possible. Whatever it is, it needs to stand on its own. Something else that could change my mind is that it's discovered he was part of an online community with political ties that over a reasonable amount of time, pushed him to this decision. I have doubts about this because an online community would have been something to live for. Of course, there could have been a politically charged adult who manipulated him. I doubt it, but such a discovery would certainly make it political.

Imagine a man in a bad marriage and constant employment problems. Something on Facebook that's political pisses him off, he likes the post or makes a statement and then goes out and commits a violent crime. Yes, it shows the potholes of political incitement, but I have a really hard time calling it a true political motive. It's easy to light a match, dowsing the building in gasoline takes more effort. Should this same person, however, deal with his problems by joining an online group that's political, and he gets caught up in the drama and works himself up, and then goes out and commits a crime connected to the material discussed by his community, then yeah, it's political. Even if the bad marriage was the cause for turning to political escapism, at a certain point, the political life stands on its own.

Until then, this was a school shooting.
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Re: The Political Impact of Failed Assassination

Post by Kishkumen »

Gadianton wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2024 1:06 am
Yeah, for the most part. This was a school shooting. The "cool kids" just happen to be politicians. I think it's pretty ridiculous he'd be fired up over threats to democracy when that democracy wasn't for him. It was for other people. Trying to extract anything of significance out of a 15 dollar donation when compared to four years of isolation and getting bullied is absurd. Same for registering Republican. Meaningless compared to all the rejection inputs. I think he would have been biased against the right because he resonated with gun culture which probably included survivalist paranoia, but in the end, there wasn't a place for him in that village. You know the saying, "the child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth."

I'm open to being wrong, and here's some things that could change my mind. The first thing would be diaries or extensive social media indicating active political fantasies. If he had some second life filled with Kaczynski paranoia and the culmination of that was a significant action he must take, then that might be enough to consider it political. He was quite intelligent so it's possible. Whatever it is, it needs to stand on its own. Something else that could change my mind is that it's discovered he was part of an online community with political ties that over a reasonable amount of time, pushed him to this decision. I have doubts about this because an online community would have been something to live for. Of course, there could have been a politically charged adult who manipulated him. I doubt it, but such a discovery would certainly make it political.

Imagine a man in a bad marriage and constant employment problems. Something on Facebook that's political pisses him off, he likes the post or makes a statement and then goes out and commits a violent crime. Yes, it shows the potholes of political incitement, but I have a really hard time calling it a true political motive. It's easy to light a match, dowsing the building in gasoline takes more effort. Should this same person, however, deal with his problems by joining an online group that's political, and he gets caught up in the drama and works himself up, and then goes out and commits a crime connected to the material discussed by his community, then yeah, it's political. Even if the bad marriage was the cause for turning to political escapism, at a certain point, the political life stands on its own.

Until then, this was a school shooting.
As if the attempted assassination wasn’t bad enough, Republicans, lacking any evidence, not to mention respect for anyone’s intelligence, started to blame it on Joe Biden and Democrats. Crazy.
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Re: The Political Impact of Failed Assassination

Post by Binger »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2024 2:53 am
As if the attempted assassination wasn’t bad enough, Republicans, lacking any evidence, not to mention respect for anyone’s intelligence, started to blame it on Joe Biden and Democrats. Crazy.
Hmmmmmm. I wonder where that rhetoric was tested on the public. Hmmm. Let me... nope. Can't think of an example. This is all the way new. Nothign comes to mind. Tin ear brain. There is no way they would do this if had already been done and didn't work.
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Re: The Political Impact of Failed Assassination

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Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2024 2:53 am
As if the attempted assassination wasn’t bad enough, Republicans, lacking any evidence, not to mention respect for anyone’s intelligence, started to blame it on Joe Biden and Democrats. Crazy.
This is why I'm critical of GOP voters. It's impossible for me to witness anyone claiming support for the GOP without thinking they are ignorant fools. Cultists will cult, I guess.
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Re: The Political Impact of Failed Assassination

Post by Dr. Shades »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2024 2:53 am
As if the attempted assassination wasn’t bad enough, Republicans, lacking any evidence, not to mention respect for anyone’s intelligence, started to blame it on Joe Biden and Democrats. Crazy.
Just think: If Biden really was behind the plot, then he would have immunity because it was done in his official capacity as President.
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