Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

[MG 2.0]

Jesus did not introduce the idea of personal prayer, as you have suggested. Personal prayer is ubiquitous across time and culture.

And though you have subsequently tried to qualify your assertion as prayer to God as father, Jesus did not introduce that concept, either. It's as old as concepts of God

I don’t think you have successfully shown it to be otherwise. Although there is a bit of compromise I’ve been trying to insert here. And to clarify let me post this A.I. response as food for thought:

Inquiry: Did Jesus introduce the idea of personal prayer to father in heaven or did that practice already exist before he taught the way to pray to his disciples?

Response:
While Jesus certainly emphasized and popularized the idea of personal prayer to God as a loving father, the practice of personal prayer was not entirely new to Judaism at the time of Jesus.

In fact, there are several examples in the Hebrew scriptures of individuals engaging in personal prayer, such as Hannah's prayer for a child in 1 Samuel 1, or David's many psalms of lament and praise.

However, Jesus' teachings on prayer did represent a significant shift in emphasis and approach. Whereas Jewish prayer was often focused on communal and liturgical practices, Jesus encouraged his followers to develop a personal relationship with God as a loving and merciful father.

This emphasis on personal prayer and the centrality of God's fatherhood became a key feature of early Christianity, and continues to shape Christian theology and practice today.

So while personal prayer was not entirely new to Judaism, Jesus' teachings on prayer represented a significant development and expansion of this practice.

As I was saying in my previous post, Jesus and the Old Testament are integrally connected. We come back to the focus on liturgical prayer and personal prayer. Jesus brought personal prayer to the forefront and commanded us to pray to the Father and develop a personal relationship with Him.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

No it’s not. Ask any Jew. They have the right to define their own religion. They would not say Jesus inspired them to personal prayer.

Saying that a Jesus whom Jews do not worship is a part of their tradition is ludicrous. The Judeo-Christian tradition does not include things that are outside of the belief system of Jews. It consists of the things that Christians and Jews have in common.

To suggest otherwise is to venture into the frankly bizarre and patently offensive.

Even though Jesus may not be accepted as Savior by Jews today doesn’t then by definition and/or default mean that Jesus is not the embodied fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy and that Christ is integrally intertwined with Jewish history as it is described in the Old Testament.

You are wrong. Your "by definition and/or default" is only your beliefs, not what Jewish people believe. And your statement of your beliefs as though they are universally accepted fact is offensive.

... Nonetheless, Jesus taught his disciples how to pray and they were instructed to pray to their Father in Heaven.

I don’t think that anyone here has made a definitive case for others having done the exact same thing...

Lol. EVERYONE has.

I get it. This whole ‘Jesus thing’ is central to the secular humanist’s disbelief. There is no way around it....

Oh please. Where is Res Ipsa when you need him???

Here, I excerpted one of his reponses to you:

LOL! Such a lack of self-awareness.

...Notice that none of your claims is prefaced by: this is what Mormons believe. Or even even "this is what I believe. You are telling every reader of the board what you claim is objective truth.

Here's some truth to chew on:

...You don't have a say in what "it all comes down to" for other people.

...But this is a perfect illustration of how you make derogatory remarks about others in that classic Mormon culture passive aggressive style.

...It's a silly rhetorical move that says "the fact that you keep objecting the obvious truth of my claim means there is something wrong with you."

... You actually can't accept the fact that people see the world differently than you do...

You do this constantly. Threads in which you participate are literally riddled with your "processs comments," with which you try to control what others post. Commonly, you do this as what you might imagine is some kind of clever zinger at the end of a post. The subtext is always "I know the real truth and if you disagree there is something wrong with you."

If you sincerely believed your whole "I'm okay, you're okay," schtick, you wouldn't do that. You could communicate what you believe without putting others down for their beliefs.

So why can't you?

Notice it fits this conversation perfectly. As usual.

[I Have Questions]

Yes.

Morley, knowing that you are one of those folks IHAQ is describing, would you help me out? All of these other ‘sons of gods’. Are there examples of these folks way back when addressing their Father in Heaven in prayer and teaching others how to do so?

I’m not saying that there may not have been some that did…but could you go into a bit of detail and demonstrate this to be so?

An example of a son of god praying to and addressing his Heavenly Father. As it is, this seems like the supreme act of humility.

Regards,
MG

You're being ridiculous.

This was your claim that I was responding to:

He made the claim of being related and/or associated with his “Father in Heaven”. And He taught that we should worship and obey this same Father God.

Then you said that Jesus was the only one to have done this.


Look at the Old Testament:

Isaiah 63:16

"You are our father, for Abraham did not know us, neither did Israel recognize us; You, O [YHWH], are our father; our redeemer of old is your name."

Do I need to also show you where, in The Old Testament, it says we should worship and pray to this same God?


Even in your own cannon, the Book of Mormon prophets who preceded Jesus taught the God is the Father and that we should worship him. This stuff didn't begin with the earthly ministry of Jesus.

That’s priceless Morley, the Book of Mormon also refutes the uniqueness assertion about Jesus that MG 2.0 keeps re-asserting.

One cannot help but wonder if he’s actually read the Book of Mormon, of if he believes it’s an accurate telling of real events. If he does, then he’s knowingly making assertions against The Book of Mormon. It’s delicious that he’s painted himself into a corner where to get out he either has to admit he’s wrong with his assertion about Jesus, or he’s admiting the Book of Mormon isn’t accurate.

And he's done that on a thread he started that’s titled “Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?”

[Gadianton]

Notice it fits this conversation perfectly. As usual.

Yes, in particular this one:

...You don't have a say in what "it all comes down to" for other people.

This time around, it all comes down to Jesus teaching his disciples how to pray. It's a great observation on Res's part because it gets to the real beliefs of MG, the deeper tropes, which he could satisfy with observations that aren't necessarily Mormon. (and let's face it, his observations don't always represent what the Church actually teaches. Such as in this case.)

####
The Beaver looked to his father quizzically. "Being an adult must be so gosh darn hard. It's all so confusing."

Father chuckled just a little. "Well son, it is complicated; I won't tell you that it's not. But I think you'll pick it up just fine. It all comes down to..."
####

MG has a subtle insight in his pocket that intellectuals just may not have considered, as they miss the mark with all those words they invest into every topic. Maybe leave some room for creator God? Maybe remember that Jesus taught the disciples to pray?

I get it. This whole ‘Jesus thing’ is central to the secular humanist’s disbelief. There is no way around it....

But it's not central to the disbelief of Ceeboo, who is a fellow Christian who believes in Jesus.

[ceeboo]

Hey Morely

No it’s not. Ask any Jew. They have the right to define their own religion. They would not say Jesus inspired them to personal prayer.

Saying that a Jesus whom Jews do not worship is a part of their tradition is ludicrous. The Judeo-Christian tradition does not include things that are outside of the belief system of Jews. It consists of the things that Christians and Jews have in common.

To suggest otherwise is to venture into the frankly bizarre and patently offensive.

Sometimes (including instances like this) a bit of clarity is helpful to discussion (especially these types of discussion).

"Jew" is an ethnicity: Jews can be secular, Jews can practice the religion of Judaism, Jews can be followers of Christ (Christian). The first Christians were Jews who were practicing Judaism at the time of Jesus. Jesus was a Jew (Ethnically and religiously)

Regarding your "Ask any Jew" - I would submit that the answer depends on what type of Jew you're asking. Just like there are many Jews who are followers of Jesus today, there are many Jews who are secular, or who practice Talmudic Judaism, or are Muslim, or are Hindu, or are
Atheist, or are....................

Messianic Jews (Jews who recognize Jesus as Messiah and are Christian by all accounts) absolutely worship Jesus and absolutely do see themselves as belonging to a very long and revered tradition. In my mind, Biblical Christianity, among other things, is a continuation of Old Testament Judaism (Just like it was for the thousands of religious Jews who became the first Christians in the first century AD)

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Just like there are many Jews who are followers of Jesus today,

How many?

- Doc

[Marcus]

Hey Morely

No it’s not. Ask any Jew. They have the right to define their own religion. They would not say Jesus inspired them to personal prayer.

Saying that a Jesus whom Jews do not worship is a part of their tradition is ludicrous. The Judeo-Christian tradition does not include things that are outside of the belief system of Jews. It consists of the things that Christians and Jews have in common.

To suggest otherwise is to venture into the frankly bizarre and patently offensive.

Sometimes (including instances like this) a bit of clarity is helpful to discussion (especially these types of discussion).

"Jew" is an ethnicity: Jews can be secular, Jews can practice the religion of Judaism, Jews can be followers of Christ (Christian). The first Christians were Jews who were practicing Judaism at the time of Jesus. Jesus was a Jew (Ethnically and religiously)

Regarding your "Ask any Jew" - I would submit that the answer depends on what type of Jew you're asking. Just like there are many Jews who are followers of Jesus today, there are many Jews who are secular, or who practice Talmudic Judaism, or are Muslim, or are Hindu, or are
Atheist, or are....................

Messianic Jews (Jews who recognize Jesus as Messiah and are Christian by all accounts) absolutely worship Jesus and absolutely do see themselves as belonging to a very long and revered tradition. In my mind, Biblical Christianity, among other things, is a continuation of Old Testament Judaism (Just like it was for the thousands of religious Jews who became the first Christians in the first century AD)

It helps to read Morley's comment as a whole.

No it’s not. Ask any Jew. They have the right to define their own religion. They would not say Jesus inspired them to personal prayer.

Saying that a Jesus whom Jews do not worship is a part of their tradition is ludicrous. The Judeo-Christian tradition does not include things that are outside of the belief system of Jews. It consists of the things that Christians and Jews have in common.

To suggest otherwise is to venture into the frankly bizarre and patently offensive.

Picking out one phrase in isolation while avoiding the implications of the whole is so very mentalgymnastical. And disingenuous. But I repeat myself, as those two terms are synonymous.

[ceeboo]

Picking out one phrase in isolation while avoiding the implications of the whole is so very mentalgymnastical. And disingenuous. But I repeat myself, as those two terms are synonymous.

I posted what I did because I thought it might be valuable to the entire discussion - adding to the discussion (an interesting one in my opinion) - If you found my post to be disingenuous and/or mentalgymnastical (or both as they are synonymous in your mind) then that's okay by me. No worries.

[Morley]

Hey Morely

No it’s not. Ask any Jew. They have the right to define their own religion. They would not say Jesus inspired them to personal prayer.

Saying that a Jesus whom Jews do not worship is a part of their tradition is ludicrous. The Judeo-Christian tradition does not include things that are outside of the belief system of Jews. It consists of the things that Christians and Jews have in common.

To suggest otherwise is to venture into the frankly bizarre and patently offensive.

Sometimes (including instances like this) a bit of clarity is helpful to discussion (especially these types of discussion).

"Jew" is an ethnicity: Jews can be secular, Jews can practice the religion of Judaism, Jews can be followers of Christ (Christian). The first Christians were Jews who were practicing Judaism at the time of Jesus. Jesus was a Jew (Ethnically and religiously)

Regarding your "Ask any Jew" - I would submit that the answer depends on what type of Jew you're asking. Just like there are many Jews who are followers of Jesus today, there are many Jews who are secular, or who practice Talmudic Judaism, or are Muslim, or are Hindu, or are
Atheist, or are....................

Messianic Jews (Jews who recognize Jesus as Messiah and are Christian by all accounts) absolutely worship Jesus and absolutely do see themselves as belonging to a very long and revered tradition. In my mind, Biblical Christianity, among other things, is a continuation of Old Testament Judaism (Just like it was for the thousands of religious Jews who became the first Christians in the first century AD)

Many of MG’s mistaken pronouncements about what Jews and Muslims believe hit a nerve with me. I’ve spent considerable time in the Near East. My wife is an Iranian Shi’ite. One of my daughters is Jewish, as are some of my grandchildren. My grandmother was a Mormon who was descended from Jews. Since the war with Gaza started, my wife and I are in daily contact with a friend who is living through the horror in Israel. This is all to give some background as to where I’m coming from.

Messianic Jews, right or wrong, are not considered to be a part of the Jewish community. This is because of the thousands of years of persecution, accusations of blood libel, and horrific antisemitism that all has historical roots in Christianity. You’re right that the larger Jewish community is pretty diverse, but you’ll find near universal agreement on this.

Jews, as a religious and ethnic community, have a right to define themselves for themselves. You can find parallels in all communities. Christians, as diverse as they are, feel free to marginalize those whom they see as not adhering to their faith and traditions.

[Morley]

As I was saying in my previous post, Jesus and the Old Testament are integrally connected. We come back to the focus on liturgical prayer and personal prayer. Jesus brought personal prayer to the forefront and commanded us to pray to the Father and develop a personal relationship with Him.

So, you’ve gone from ‘Jesus introduced personal prayer to the world’ to ‘Jesus brought personal prayer to the forefront.’

For Christians, Jesus and the Old Testament are indeed connected. For most Jews, that’s a somewhat heretical concept.