Are there still liberal Mormons?

[MG 2.0]

Liberal or conservative, I think it’s difficult be an intellectual and a Mormon. No, I don’t consider myself an intellectual. But I don’t think that those who enjoy any kind of ‘life of the mind’ fare well in mormondom.

Eugene England

Lowell Bennion

Leonard Arrington

Hugh Nibley

James Talmage

John Widstoe

Terryl Givens

Richard Bushman

Patrick Mason

Adam Miller

Granted, some have taken some hard knocks. But many Mormon intellectuals know that’s going to come with the territory. They’re going to get it from both/all directions.

But that’s part of the fun.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Eugene England was considered a Liberal Mormon. A conference speaker defined a liberal Mormon as someone without a testimony. Dialogue was a journal with any provocative articles. England England in a letter to me defined what he thought was a liberal Mormon.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ocA ... sp=sharing

Lest we forget Eugene started (along with a few others) Dialogue way back in 1966. As can be seen from the letter he wrote to you he wanted Dialogue a place where all viewpoints could be shared while at the same time holding a place for belief and testimony.

I went to high school from 68-72. It was during those years that Dialogue was one of the reading material choices we had in our home while growing up in Southern California. Later came Sunstone.

Opened my eyes! That I can say.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

As a bookend to the story, I now have grown children, all of whom were raised outside the influence of this cult. They are all happy, well educated, thoughtful, and hard-working good people who have the morals that people like mg and midgley think are impossible outside their cult. I also have a grandchild now! I have mentioned this before, but to recap, I consider it to be the greatest accomplishment of my life that I was able to raise my children outside of the cult, and put them on a better path.

Glad to hear your children are happy and well adjusted adults. That’s what we all hope for and want for our kids. I will take issue with the fact that you misspoke when you said that I could not conceive of people outside of the church being “happy, well educated, thoughtful, and hard working good people that have morals”.

Sheesh.

I’m not a Midgely. The list I provided earlier in this thread are those I look to as being folks to look to for their knowledge and experience.

You get it wrong so often, Marcus.

Also, I would take issue with your portrayal of the LDS Church as a “cult”. It’s not. I’ve been around longer than you have (I think)…and I can tell you as one that has remained active all my life…the church is not a cult.

I am sorry that you along with others have had horrible experiences that have played a part in shattering your outlook towards the church as a whole. As it is, most members (if those I’ve known over the years are any indication) are not the ‘beasts’ that you have had the unfortunate experience of living with and associating with in your family.

My heart goes out to you. I can tell you that I don’t think you would have gone this trajectory of abuse in our family or many other families. I don’t know if yours was an anomaly, but it’s not par for the course in my experience.

Our extended family has ex-members, gays, and pimos. We get together, we go out to eat here and there and we see each other as people that deserve respect and dignity for their/our choices.

I hope we’re not the outliers. I don’t think we are.

Regards,
MG

[Morley]

Liberal or conservative, I think it’s difficult be an intellectual and a Mormon. No, I don’t consider myself an intellectual. But I don’t think that those who enjoy any kind of ‘life of the mind’ fare well in mormondom.

Eugene England

Lowell Bennion

Leonard Arrington

Hugh Nibley

James Talmage

John Widstoe

Terryl Givens

Richard Bushman

Patrick Mason

Adam Miller

Granted, some have taken some hard knocks. But many Mormon intellectuals know that’s going to come with the territory. They’re going to get it from both/all directions.

But that’s part of the fun.

Regards,
MG

It looks like you agree. I’ve read the verbal gymnastics of more than a few of these fellows as they try to justify their faith. They each make it apparent how very difficult it is be both an intellectual and a Mormon. Managing the intellectual compromises required apparently is not easy.

[Morley]

Lest we forget Eugene started (along with a few others) Dialogue way back in 1966. As can be seen from the letter he wrote to you he wanted Dialogue a place where all viewpoints could be shared while at the same time holding a place for belief and testimony.

I went to high school from 68-72. It was during those years that Dialogue was one of the reading material choices we had in our home while growing up in Southern California. Later came Sunstone.

Opened my eyes! That I can say.

I dunno, MG. Maybe you’re remembering something that didn’t happen. You say that you read Sunstone as a teenager, too.

Grew up in he same church as you guys. I read Sunstone and Dialogue while a teenager before I served a mission. How about that!

But you didn’t.

[Moksha]

Liberal or conservative, I think it’s difficult be an intellectual and a Mormon. No, I don’t consider myself an intellectual. But I don’t think that those who enjoy any kind of ‘life of the mind’ fare well in Mormondom.

I think intellectual Mormons have an astounding ability to compartmentalize what they know from what they believe.

[MG 2.0]

Lest we forget Eugene started (along with a few others) Dialogue way back in 1966. As can be seen from the letter he wrote to you he wanted Dialogue a place where all viewpoints could be shared while at the same time holding a place for belief and testimony.

I went to high school from 68-72. It was during those years that Dialogue was one of the reading material choices we had in our home while growing up in Southern California. Later came Sunstone.

Opened my eyes! That I can say.

I dunno, MG. Maybe you’re remembering something that didn’t happen. You say that you read Sunstone as a teenager, too.

Grew up in he same church as you guys. I read Sunstone and Dialogue while a teenager before I served a mission. How about that!

But you didn’t.

Hi Morley. We had both. I may be off on the timeline. This was a long time ago. If I misspoke on the chronology, I’m sorry. Especially if that somehow is an issue for you.

Memories fade sometimes when it comes to what took place when. I didn’t write it in my journal.

The fact is, when I was younger, pre mission and post mission (I think?), I read through a lot of Dialogue and Sunstone.

It was after my mission I attended Sunstone and FAIR. That I’m sure of the timing.

Along with Tanners and just about everything else that was coming into view.

Hope that helps.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

As a bookend to the story, I now have grown children, all of whom were raised outside the influence of this cult. They are all happy, well educated, thoughtful, and hard-working good people who have the morals that people like mg and midgley think are impossible outside their cult. I also have a grandchild now! I have mentioned this before, but to recap, I consider it to be the greatest accomplishment of my life that I was able to raise my children outside of the cult, and put them on a better path.

Glad to hear your children are happy and well adjusted adults. That’s what we all hope for and want for our kids. I will take issue with the fact that you misspoke when you said that I could not conceive of people outside of the church being “happy, well educated, thoughtful, and hard working good people that have morals”.

no, you can't. You've stated that repeatedly.

Sheesh.

I’m not a Midgely.

yes, you are.

The list I provided earlier in this thread are those I look to as being folks to look to for their knowledge and experience.

You get it wrong so often, Marcus.

No, I don't.

Also, I would take issue with your portrayal of the LDS Church as a “cult”. It’s not. I’ve been around longer than you have (I think)…and I can tell you as one that has remained active all my life…the church is not a cult.

Yes, it is.

I am sorry that you along with others have had horrible experiences that have played a part in shattering your outlook towards the church as a whole.

no, I know the LDS church is not a legitimate religion, based on my research.

As it is, most members (if those I’ve known over the years are any indication) are not the ‘beasts’ that you have had the unfortunate experience of living with and associating with in your family.

And yet, you've demonstrated repeatedly you are exactly that asshole I described.

My heart goes out to you.

no it doesn't. For all the years I've watched you post, and say crappy things to nonmormons, I know that's a lie.

I can tell you that I don’t think you would have gone this trajectory of abuse in our family or many other families. I don’t know if yours was an anomaly, but it’s not par for the course in my experience.

BS. Based on the people you've abused here, multiple times and in multiple ways over multiple years, it's clear you've ostracized many.

Our extended family has ex-members, gays, and pimos.

prove it. Based on how you post here, there is no chance that you treat people in real life any differently than you treat people here.

We get together, we go out to eat here and there and we see each other as people that deserve respect and dignity for their/our choices.

lol. Based on how you've treated people here, there is no chance that is true.

I hope we’re not the outliers. I don’t think we are.

You're not an outlier. You are a liar.

[I Have Questions]

I dunno, MG. Maybe you’re remembering something that didn’t happen. You say that you read Sunstone as a teenager, too.



But you didn’t.

Hi Morley. We had both. I may be off on the timeline. This was a long time ago. If I misspoke on the chronology, I’m sorry. Especially if that somehow is an issue for you.

Memories fade sometimes when it comes to what took place when. I didn’t write it in my journal.

So your witness testimony was unreliable...

[I Have Questions]

These are thoughts started by an exchange in the Book of Mormon thread lost in its multiplying subjects.

I see your point, but it wasn't treated as just counsel in my family. My Dad was bishop from when I was 8 until I went to college, and my Mom was even more devout. (And she loved Harold B. Lee. I still remember finding her in tears the day he passed away.) When a prophet said things like that, they took it seriously, and instituted measures to make it happen. We started reading scriptures as a family in the early morning every day, and ended with family prayer on our knees. (And not sitting down on your behind, but sitting up tall on your knees, out of RESPECT.)

I was suprised how foreign this sounded to me. I find on reflection that Marcus's experience is likely closer to most Mormons than mine. I remember occasional comments about some LDS were iron rod followers and others more freely followed general principals. (was liahona the term?) Perhaps my memory is telling me that this distinction was made by a few more liberal folks. I realize my family was a bit different. Both parents from Salt Lake ,my mother was old LDS family, my father a convert who probably always had mixed thoughts about the church. They did not give me a hard time for leaving the church but respected my personal search. I am sure my mother always hoped for my return.

I really do not mean to try and blow my horn but to explain I thought of the fact there is a picture of me at age three sitting on a sofa next to Wayne Booth. That didn't make me smarter but it illustrates influence.
from Wikipedia.

Wayne Clayson Booth (February 22, 1921, in American Fork, Utah – October 10, 2005, in Chicago, Illinois) was an American literary critic and rhetorician. He was the George M. Pullman Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus in English Language & Literature and the College at the University of Chicago. His work followed largely from the Chicago school of literary criticism.
Life

Booth was born in Utah of Latter-day Saint parents, Wayne Chipman Booth and Lillian Clayson Booth. The older Booth died in 1927, when young Wayne was six years old.[1] Booth graduated from American Fork High School in 1938.[2] He was educated at Brigham Young University and the University of Chicago. He taught English at Haverford College and Earlham College before moving back to the University of Chicago. He maintained his membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout his life, but took the position that many religions were equally acceptable and sufficient.[3] He was a member of both the American Philosophical Society and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.[4][5]

In terms of the question posed “Are there still liberal Mormons?” I suppose it depends on how one defines “liberal”.

Favoring reform, open to new ideas, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; not bound by traditional thinking; broad-minded. synonym: broad-minded.

I’m sure there are still broad-minded members who are open to new ideas and who would like the Church to reform a few things. In fact I know a few. But these days they are more circumspect in how they give voice to their thoughts and opinions that might be deemed contrary to the party line. Spates of mass executions, and leadership training like we’ve seen from Oaks recently, suppress these types of members into keeping their mouths shut for fear of similar treatment.

Some would say yes, liberal members still exist. But I would suggest they are more “underground” than they could have been in the past. And it’s for damn sure that the current Church leadership intends to drive those members either further underground, or out altogether.