Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

[MG 2.0]

Nor are they factually based, scientifically accurate, or realistic. That site promotes drivel. But, having mg send lurkers there will certainly have an effect. Not the one he is hoping for, however.

That’s true

Or false.

Lurkers...don't listen to them. More information is always better than less. Be patient. Search. Seek. Find. Faith comes through feasting on the words of Christ. Don't leave the scriptures to collect dust. Pick them up and read them even when you're going through tough stuff in regards to faith issues.

And continue to pray and have faith that God exists and is interested in your welfare and wants the best for you.

He will help you sort things out.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Well that's it for now. Other things to do...

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Nor are they factually based, scientifically accurate, or realistic. That site promotes drivel. But, having mg send lurkers there will certainly have an effect. Not the one he is hoping for, however.

That’s true

Having mentalgymnast send messages to lurkers is helping them more than he realizes. He is so disingenuous and so frequently dishonest that I am sure they are getting quite the picture of what it takes to believe in something like the LDS church claims.

[I Have Questions]

That’s true

Or false.

Lurkers...don't listen to them. More information is always better than less. Be patient. Search. Seek. Find. Faith comes through feasting on the words of Christ. Don't leave the scriptures to collect dust. Pick them up and read them even when you're going through tough stuff in regards to faith issues.

And continue to pray and have faith that God exists and is interested in your welfare and wants the best for you.

He will help you sort things out.

Regards,
MG

Or do your research properly, across a variety of sources, not just the ones that have a vested interest in one side of the story, and recognise that doubts are your subconscious telling you that you know something ain’t right.

[Gadianton]

just a note on doubting, and "saving a testimony."

What is a testimony? It's the knowledge that the Church is true. Under this definition, nobody has a testimony because nobody "knows the church is true". But let's admit it's hypothetically possible for someone to "know the church is true." There is a difference between knowing the Church is true, and feelings and experiences and beliefs that one has had that lead one to believe that they know the Church is true. And so practically, a testimony is the belief that one knows the Church is true.

There is no point in "saving a testimony." If I believe my house is built to withstand a tornado, and I believe that I know that it will survive based on my experiences, knowledge, and feelings, but then somebody makes some good points I'd never thought of, there is no sanctity in rescuing my beliefs just for the sake of rescuing them.

Mormons certainly don't have a problem if an Evangelical loses their "testimony" of their creeds and joins the Mormon Church. A testimony isn't a privileged thing thing that justifies all kinds of gymnastics to "save". That's special pleading just for a Mormon's situation, and otherwise Mormons wouldn't care one bit about about loss of faith of non-Mormons, if that loss of faith meant acquiring beliefs in Mormonism.

[I Have Questions]

just a note on doubting, and "saving a testimony."

What is a testimony? It's the knowledge that the Church is true. Under this definition, nobody has a testimony because nobody "knows the church is true". But let's admit it's hypothetically possible for someone to "know the church is true." There is a difference between knowing the Church is true, and feelings and experiences and beliefs that one has had that lead one to believe that they know the Church is true. And so practically, a testimony is the belief that one knows the Church is true.

There is no point in "saving a testimony." If I believe my house is built to withstand a tornado, and I believe that I know that it will survive based on my experiences, knowledge, and feelings, but then somebody makes some good points I'd never thought of, there is no sanctity in rescuing my beliefs just for the sake of rescuing them.

Mormons certainly don't have a problem if an Evangelical loses their "testimony" of their creeds and joins the Mormon Church. A testimony isn't a privileged thing thing that justifies all kinds of gymnastics to "save". That's special pleading just for a Mormon's situation, and otherwise Mormons wouldn't care one bit about about loss of faith of non-Mormons, if that loss of faith meant acquiring beliefs in Mormonism.

The Church doesn’t provide a definitive explanation of what a “testimony” is or isn’t. There’s lots of talk about it, but nothing clear. It’s knowing, or believing, or a conviction about something etc. A testimony is, it seems, something ambiguous. On that basis, a testimony is worthless outside of the individual who holds it.

How can my conviction of the Church be strengthened simply by hearing other people talk about their conviction, founded on their perspectives about things? That’s the process by which MLM’s and Affinity Frauds function - feel good about this product/scheme because I feel good about it. Testimony Meeting is the same as an MLM party. An echo chamber.

If you really wanted to determine the accuracy of Church claims, you’d want to investigate all the credible resources available - because it’s a very costly investment. You wouldn’t just investigate Bernie Madoff’s latest investment scheme by just reading the sources Bernie approves, and listening to people who have already invested. Your scope of fact checking would be much wider than that. As it should be when making big, life-changing decisions, especially ones where it’s going to cost you significant amounts of money.

Make no mistake, Church membership is the biggest financial investment you’ll ever make. And yet Church leaders and members want you to do ZERO proper due diligence on it. You should wonder why that is…

[Chap]

How can my conviction of the Church be strengthened simply by hearing other people talk about their conviction, founded on their perspectives about things? That’s the process by which MLM’s and Affinity Frauds function - feel good about this product/scheme because I feel good about it. Testimony Meeting is the same as an MLM party.

After a long experience of reading online posts by Mormons and ex-Mormons, that strikes me as hitting the nail squarely on the head.

That is why people who leave the CoJCoLDS report sometimes report shunning by family members. Anyone who might reduce the 'feeling good' factor is dangerous. Because the 'feeling good' is pretty well all there is as a basis for belief in the truth claims of this (shall we say?) somewhat special religious system.

[Marcus]

How can my conviction of the Church be strengthened simply by hearing other people talk about their conviction, founded on their perspectives about things? That’s the process by which MLM’s and Affinity Frauds function - feel good about this product/scheme because I feel good about it. Testimony Meeting is the same as an MLM party.

After a long experience of reading online posts by Mormons and ex-Mormons, that strikes me as hitting the nail squarely on the head.

That is why people who leave the CoJCoLDS report sometimes report shunning by family members. Anyone who might reduce the 'feeling good' factor is dangerous. Because the 'feeling good' is pretty well all there is as a basis for belief in the truth claims of this (shall we say?) somewhat special religious system.

Well said. In my family, I was designated by my father, early on, as the "brainy" one. He was big into labels. He bragged to anyone and everyone about his smart daughter for years. And then, his smart daughter used her brain to leave the LDS church. The insult that generated, at least in his mind, must have been intolerable. As a parent myself, I don't understand AT ALL a father turning on his child the way mine did, but clearly he valued being the father of a smart daughter who validated his choices by staying in the LDS church, more than the actual daughter. The 'feeling good' part was only there if I stayed LDS, hence the shunning, as you noted. Sadly.

[ceeboo]

Well said. In my family, I was designated by my father, early on, as the "brainy" one. He was big into labels. He bragged to anyone and everyone about his smart daughter for years. And then, his smart daughter used her brain to leave the LDS church. The insult that generated, at least in his mind, was intolerable. As a parent myself, I don't understand AT ALL a father turning on his child the way mine did, but clearly he valued being the father of a smart daughter who validated his choices by staying in the LDS church, more than the actual daughter. The 'feeling good' part was only there if I stayed LDS, hence the shunning, as you noted. Sadly.

Sorry to learn about you and your Dad. Sad. I hope, as time has passed, that things have gotten better between the two of you.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Well said. In my family, I was designated by my father, early on, as the "brainy" one. He was big into labels. He bragged to anyone and everyone about his smart daughter for years. And then, his smart daughter used her brain to leave the LDS church. The insult that generated, at least in his mind, was intolerable. As a parent myself, I don't understand AT ALL a father turning on his child the way mine did, but clearly he valued being the father of a smart daughter who validated his choices by staying in the LDS church, more than the actual daughter. The 'feeling good' part was only there if I stayed LDS, hence the shunning, as you noted. Sadly.

Up front, in no way am I saying I’m in anyone’s league here intellectually, not even close - I’m an idiot, but I can relate! My dad used to say things like, “You’re too smart for your own good.” Or, “Your brain is going to get you into trouble some day.” And, “You need to think less.”

It was like he thought I was going to think myself out of the Church, and to his credit I did. What a shame for both of us that he didn’t take the time to nurture that quality he saw in me. A little love and mentoring might’ve benefited both of us, but instead he let his fear of us leaving his church destroy his relationship with us. Too bad. He missed out on a lot of good times.

- Doc