LGBT inclusion can tear congregations apart

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Res Ipsa
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Re: LGBT inclusion can tear congregations apart

Post by Res Ipsa »

ceeboo wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2024 3:37 pm

And if I told you that Jesus is all over the Old Testament? If I told you that Jesus was there when Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed, then what?
This is another point of view that I can't wrap my mind around. It seems to me completely obvious that Christianity appropriated and repurposed the Torah as part of a brand new religion that had never existed before. That's not a condemnation of Christianity -- it wouldn't be the first religion to have reimagined or reinterpreted then-existing religion.

For several years, we were regularly visited by a Jehovah's witness named Ida. Sadly, she has since been assigned to a different area and doesn't come by any more. I started talking with her after she learned that I had been raised LDS and had lots of questions about Mormonism. I really enjoyed the conversations we had from month to month. She nicknamed me "the atheist." Even today, I can ask a Witness if they know Ida and ask them to tell her that "the atheist" says hello.

On one visit, she asked if her husband could sit in the next time. Basically, he wanted to set the atheist straight. I said sure. He came to the house on the next visit and led with all of the Old Testament prophecies that Jesus fulfilled. I responded that it was not difficult to create a story that fulfilled prophecies when the creators of the story know the prophecies in advance. He reacted as if he'd never thought of that before and moved on.

One has only to look at the thousands of claims that Nostradamus predicted specific events in modern times to see how easy it is to interpret an ancient text as predicting then-current events. It's difficult for me to understand why I should not view Christianity's reading Jesus into the Torah as anything different.

I can read (and have read) both books. Yaweh is nothing like Jesus Christ. I don't need centuries of theologians massaging texts to tell me how I should read the Torah through a Christian lens. That seems very circular to me.
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Re: LGBT inclusion can tear congregations apart

Post by ceeboo »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2024 4:22 pm
ceeboo wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2024 3:37 pm
And if I told you that Jesus is all over the Old Testament? If I told you that Jesus was there when Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed, then what?
This is another point of view that I can't wrap my mind around. It seems to me completely obvious that Christianity appropriated and repurposed the Torah as part of a brand new religion that had never existed before.
But Jesus was a practicing Jew - All the original disciples were practicing Jews - the first several thousand followers of Jesus (later called Christinas) were practicing Jews. One of the first arguments among the initial churches (after the gentiles were grafted into the church) surrounded the discussion about gentiles needing to be circumcised or not.
That's not a condemnation of Christianity -- it wouldn't be the first religion to have reimagined or reinterpreted then-existing religion.
It was a continuation. If Jesus was the Messiah that Judaism had written about and had been waiting for (And he surely was in my opinion) then it was not a new religion at all.
It's difficult for me to understand why I should not view Christianity's reading Jesus into the Torah as anything different.
Can we agree at a starting point? The name Jesus is not found in the Old Testament. How could anyone possibly think that the name Jesus, which was not given until he was born and given the name, be found prior to said event.
I don't need centuries of theologians massaging texts to tell me how I should read the Torah through a Christian lens. That seems very circular to me.
Understood.

Let's look at one example. Because I made reference about this to IHAQ, let's take a look at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

In Genesis 18:1 - Yahweh visits Abraham.

Genesis 18:1
New International Version

18 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.

The story continues (for brevity, I am skipping to Genesis 19:24 - this same Lord (Yahweh).

Genesis 19:24
New International Version

24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Lord (Yahweh) rains brimstone and fire from the Lord (Yahweh) out of heaven.

Lexicon: In all three locations where "Lord" is used above (once in Genesis 18:1 and both times in Genesis 19:24) the Hebrew word is Yahweh.

So, the same Yahweh that is visiting Abraham, is the Yahweh that travels to Sodom and Gomorra and destroys Sodom and Gomorra by the fire sent from Yahweh out of heaven.

From your view, what do you take away from this, if anything? Is this circular reasoning (I'm not being sarcastic; I am asking because maybe you see it as circular)
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Re: LGBT inclusion can tear congregations apart

Post by drumdude »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2024 4:22 pm
I can read (and have read) both books. Yaweh is nothing like Jesus Christ.
I wonder how the pantheon of Gods plays into this. It's one of the "bullseyes" that Joseph Smith seems to have hit, although in my opinion completely by chance.

One of Dan McClellan's recent videos walks through the different Gods that were merged into Yaweh - El and Adonai. Perhaps an interesting though retroactive argument can be made that this explains Jesus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGkMhrftpRY
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Re: LGBT inclusion can tear congregations apart

Post by Res Ipsa »

ceeboo wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:11 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2024 4:22 pm

This is another point of view that I can't wrap my mind around. It seems to me completely obvious that Christianity appropriated and repurposed the Torah as part of a brand new religion that had never existed before.
But Jesus was a practicing Jew - All the original disciples were practicing Jews - the first several thousand followers of Jesus (later called Christinas) were practicing Jews. One of the first arguments among the initial churches (after the gentiles were grafted into the church) surrounded the discussion about gentiles needing to be circumcised or not.
That's not a condemnation of Christianity -- it wouldn't be the first religion to have reimagined or reinterpreted then-existing religion.
It was a continuation. If Jesus was the Messiah that Judaism had written about and had been waiting for (And he surely was in my opinion) then it was not a new religion at all.
It's difficult for me to understand why I should not view Christianity's reading Jesus into the Torah as anything different.
Can we agree at a starting point? The name Jesus is not found in the Old Testament. How could anyone possibly think that the name Jesus, which was not given until he was born and given the name, be found prior to said event.
I don't need centuries of theologians massaging texts to tell me how I should read the Torah through a Christian lens. That seems very circular to me.
Understood.

Let's look at one example. Because I made reference about this to IHAQ, let's take a look at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

In Genesis 18:1 - Yahweh visits Abraham.

Genesis 18:1
New International Version

18 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.

The story continues (for brevity, I am skipping to Genesis 19:24 - this same Lord (Yahweh).

Genesis 19:24
New International Version

24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Lord (Yahweh) rains brimstone and fire from the Lord (Yahweh) out of heaven.

Lexicon: In all three locations where "Lord" is used above (once in Genesis 18:1 and both times in Genesis 19:24) the Hebrew word is Yahweh.

So, the same Yahweh that is visiting Abraham, is the Yahweh that travels to Sodom and Gomorra and destroys Sodom and Gomorra by the fire sent from Yahweh out of heaven.

From your view, what do you take away from this, if anything? Is this circular reasoning (I'm not being sarcastic; I am asking because maybe you see it as circular)
Sure, Christianity originated among a subset of Jews. They reinterpreted their scripture to create a new religion.

I get that you believe it's all one story, but I think it's far from obvious.

I agree with your starting point -- the name "Jesus" is not present in the Old Testament. But I don't follow your reasoning from there. If the Old Testament predicts the birth, life and death of Jesus, why would it be impossible to predict his name?

Regarding Genesis, I don't see what you've written as circular reasoning. I think it's reasonable to conclude that whoever was responsible for the version of Genesis that we have used the same name (Yahweh) to refer to the same god.
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Re: LGBT inclusion can tear congregations apart

Post by ceeboo »

Hey RI - Quich reply - need to run, dad is having plumbing problems and I'm off to save the day. If you reply again, I will get to it when I can.
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:39 pm

I get that you believe it's all one story, but I think it's far from obvious.
Fair.
I agree with your starting point -- the name "Jesus" is not present in the Old Testament. But I don't follow your reasoning from there. If the Old Testament predicts the birth, life and death of Jesus, why would it be impossible to predict his name?
Fair - perhaps more later.
Regarding Genesis, I don't see what you've written as circular reasoning. I think it's reasonable to conclude that whoever was responsible for the version of Genesis that we have used the same name (Yahweh) to refer to the same god.
So, if the Septuagint (Greek translation of the ancient text Old Testament - 3rd century BC) lends support - does that play a factor here from your view, or no?

(Gotta go - Where are my plumber's pants?)
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Re: LGBT inclusion can tear congregations apart

Post by Res Ipsa »

ceeboo wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:53 pm
Hey RI - Quich reply - need to run, dad is having plumbing problems and I'm off to save the day. If you reply again, I will get to it when I can.
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:39 pm

I get that you believe it's all one story, but I think it's far from obvious.
Fair.
I agree with your starting point -- the name "Jesus" is not present in the Old Testament. But I don't follow your reasoning from there. If the Old Testament predicts the birth, life and death of Jesus, why would it be impossible to predict his name?
Fair - perhaps more later.
Regarding Genesis, I don't see what you've written as circular reasoning. I think it's reasonable to conclude that whoever was responsible for the version of Genesis that we have used the same name (Yahweh) to refer to the same god.
So, if the Septuagint (Greek translation of the ancient text Old Testament - 3rd century BC) lends support - does that play a factor here from your view, or no?

(Gotta go - Where are my plumber's pants?)
No rush, Ceebs. Take care of your Dad. Plumbing problems suck.

Drawing firm conclusions from the Septuagint seems like a complicated issue to me. Just using Wikipedia for background:
The Septuagint does not consist of a single, unified corpus. Rather, it is a collection of ancient translations of the Tanakh, along with other Jewish texts that are now commonly referred to as apocrypha. Importantly, the canon of the Hebrew Bible was evolving over the century or so in which the Septuagint was being written. Also, the texts were translated by many different people, in different locations, at different times, for different purposes, and often from different original Hebrew manuscripts.[8]
Also:
The Septuagint has been rejected as scriptural by mainstream Rabbinic Judaism for a couple of reasons. First, the Septuagint differs from the Hebrew source texts in many cases (particularly in the Book of Job).[15] Second, the translations appear at times to demonstrate an ignorance of Hebrew idiomatic usage.[15] A particularly noteworthy example of this phenomenon is found in Isaiah 7:14, in which the Hebrew word עַלְמָה‎ (‘almāh, which translates into English as "young woman") is translated into the Koine Greek as παρθένος (parthenos, which translates into English as "virgin").[44]
So, what we call "The Septuagint" is not what we think of as a translation in modern terms. It is an amalgamation of many different sections of Hebrew text translated by many individuals over an extended length of time, during which there was no fixed version of the original text. On top of that, for any piece of the process that occurred after Christianity was introduced we have to ask whether the translation was affected at all by the belief that that the Hebrew Scriptures talked about the birth, life and death of Jesus.

Drawing firm conclusions from that mess sounds pretty dicey to me.
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Re: LGBT inclusion can tear congregations apart

Post by huckelberry »

ceeboo wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2024 2:09 pm

I believe God has the right to do whatever he wants to do. God is not beholden to us at all - He doesn't owe us anything. It's his creation and he has the right, as Creator, to do whatever he wants.

If you don't see God, as I do, as the Creator of everything - as this Spiritual Being that has always existed - before time/space was even created - than surely you can question Him - Judge him - and find him to be a monster unworthy of your worship (I think that is precisely what Dawkins has said in one of his books, if I am not mistaken.)
.....

As I have already mentioned, I have heard this many times before, and I understand the position, I just don't think it's a rational one. I think, if you recognize the reality that we all die at some point, there is also great hope, love, and eternal salvation available to any/all by the very same God. Biblically speaking, death is what we all deserve - protesting such a fate does nothing to change that stark reality.
Hi Ceeboo, I am not one who sympathizes much with Dawkins. I still have some reservations about the idea that God can do whatever. Yes God as creator is not under our judgement. It can be thought that God must respect his own character and purpose because to do contrawise would diminish him. Unless you are thinking of a God with that sort of sense of obligation then it would sound like you mean something like blind chance . The rule of chance is of course a concept of god beyond judgement and owes nothing to anybody.

I like your ending comment.
Last edited by huckelberry on Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: LGBT inclusion can tear congregations apart

Post by Marcus »

ceeboo wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2024 2:09 pm
...I believe God has the right to do whatever he wants to do. God is not beholden to us at all - He doesn't owe us anything. It's his creation and he has the right, as Creator, to do whatever he wants...
But you are willing to let humans, writing a book, tell you what they think god said. Why do you trust these humans? Because they told you they were speaking for god? Kind of like how Joseph Smith wrote a book that he said was from god, and in the book he wrote, his name was given as a future prophet. Therefore, Mormons argue god meant Smith to be a prophet.

Circular reasoning, right? Like your reasoning about the Bible being the word of god?
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Re: LGBT inclusion can tear congregations apart

Post by I Have Questions »

Marcus wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:39 pm
ceeboo wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2024 2:09 pm
...I believe God has the right to do whatever he wants to do. God is not beholden to us at all - He doesn't owe us anything. It's his creation and he has the right, as Creator, to do whatever he wants...
But you are willing to let humans, writing a book, tell you what they think god said. Why do you trust these humans? Because they told you they were speaking for god? Kind of like how Joseph Smith wrote a book that he said was from god, and in the book he wrote, his name was given as a future prophet. Therefore, Mormons argue god meant Smith to be a prophet.

Circular reasoning, right? Like your reasoning about the Bible being the word of god?
So if you create something, you can do whatever you want with it? Parents who abuse their creations are all good from ceeboo’s perspective, apparently.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: LGBT inclusion can tear congregations apart

Post by Chap »

I Have Questions wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2024 7:26 am
Can we agree at a starting point? The name Jesus is not found in the Old Testament. How could anyone possibly think that the name Jesus, which was not given until he was born and given the name, be found prior to said event.
WT<something>?? Perhaps this is meant sarcastically.

Of course, if you look in the King James Translation of the Old Testament into English, you con't find the name 'Jesus'.

But I thought every Christian of a moderate level of education would know that the name 'Jesus' for the guy from Nazareth comes from the Greek Iēsous (Ἰησοῦς) used in the New Testament, which itself originates in the Hebrew name Yeshua, a shorter form of Yehoshua (Joshua, see the Old Testament in the KJV)) which basically means 'Deliverer'. Hence Matthew 1:21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins".
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