CWK: Becoming a god: deification in Mormonism and Orthodox theosis

[Kishkumen]

Premieres at 10 pm Mountain Time tonight!

Mormons are sometimes ridiculed for believing they will become gods. It is an esoteric teaching which is increasingly de-emphasized, but it is central to Mormon doctrine. Here I compare Mormon deification with Orthodox theosis. The two are quite different, but Mormonism, Orthodoxy, and Catholicism share a belief in the efficacy of ritual in the process of divinization that Protestants do not share.

https://youtu.be/m7FyTl3I_qs

This one I really enjoyed doing because I think it is educational, it respects the differences between Mormon deification and Orthodox theosis, and it points out what I think is an important difference between Mormonism, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy, on the one hand, and Protestantism, on the other, especially as regards the role of ritual in the divination process.

[Gadianton]

Thanks for another episode, Kish. Could you contextualize the idea of "social trinitarianism" into the various ideas about theosis?

[Kishkumen]

Thanks for another episode, Kish. Could you contextualize the idea of "social trinitarianism" into the various ideas about theosis?

Hello, Gad! So, I suppose that may be possible, but right now I can't think how it would be. In other words, Social Trinitarianism is something I only read about in LDS circles, and this equips me poorly for the task. I am left thinking that LDS eternal progression still links together God the Father and his children in a very literal way in which the latter may progress to be essentially identical in most respects to the former, which is not what theosis is about at all.

[huckelberry]

Kishkumen, I thought your presentation was thoughtful. I did find myself wondering that perhaps you focused a bit much on those monastic disciplines in Orthodoxy. I am reasonably sure that theosis is not the exclusive preserve of monks though they do a special focus for the community. I realize I am less familiar with Orthodoxy than Latin Catholic and my understanding of monastic disclpline is largely based upon Thomas Merton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bq6XC6ZOVE

Here is a short presentation of Orthodox views in context of Ladder of Divine Ascent. Perhaps noteworthy is the idea that progress is to continue through eternity in heaven as well as steps getting there.

[Kishkumen]

Kishkumen, I thought your presentation was thoughtful. I did find myself wondering that perhaps you focused a bit much on those monastic disciplines in Orthodoxy. I am reasonably sure that theosis is not the exclusive preserve of monks though they do a special focus for the community. I realize I am less familiar with Orthodoxy than Latin Catholic and my understanding of monastic disclpline is largely based upon Thomas Merton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bq6XC6ZOVE

Here is a short presentation of Orthodox views in context of Ladder of Divine Ascent. Perhaps noteworthy is the idea that progress is to continue through eternity in heaven as well as steps getting there.

Excellent point, huckelberry. Although I am aware that the osos is not just for monks, I tend to focus on them because they seem to come closest to achieving it in this life, but this requires a life of almost superhuman devotion and discipline. I appreciate you bringing up the wider application, which I admit I skimped on. One of the problems is keeping to a 25-minute max timeframe, which is my current goal.

[GiordanoBruno]

Another very fine podcast about a weird and wonderful Mormon doctrine that our leaders are reluctant to talk about too much in public. See, for example, Pres. Hinkley. But something that, as you make clear, sets us apart from the Protestantism we so much want to be a part of. Well done, Kish!

[Kishkumen]

Another very fine podcast about a weird and wonderful Mormon doctrine that our leaders are reluctant to talk about too much in public. See, for example, Pres. Hinkley. But something that, as you make clear, sets us apart from the Protestantism we so much want to be a part of. Well done, Kish!

Thank you, GiordanoBruno! I am flattered that you enjoyed it. I am hopeful that this episode will do well and reach a lot of people. I believe I make a point or two that don’t often get mentioned in discussion of this topic.

[Moksha]

Kish, was the hope for eternal sex through polygamy the driving force for this LDS doctrine?

[Kishkumen]

Kish, was the hope for eternal sex through polygamy the driving force for this LDS doctrine?

To my recollection, no. But I could be wrong. The roots of the doctrine are in the New Testament. Of course, the clearest expression of deification is in D&C 132, so there is that.

[Markk]

Kish, was the hope for eternal sex through polygamy the driving force for this LDS doctrine?

To my recollection, no. But I could be wrong. The roots of the doctrine are in the New Testament. Of course, the clearest expression of deification is in D&C 132, so there is that.

I didn't listen to your podcast, but just reading this, section 132 is deeply rooted, and I would argue solely rooted for sex, for both the present (polygamy) and the future (continuation of seeds). 132 was the get out of jail card for the underground sex cult the church had become in Nauvoo for the selected leaders.

As far as it being rooted in the New Testament is nothing more that a reverse engineering by Smith, starting with the doctrine, then working backwards taking verses out of context that when broken down contradict the LDS doctrine. Psalms 82 being a prime example in a LDS context in that it demands that a exalted perfected being can be wicked, and throws the "be ye perfect" teaching is the waste basket.

The "hope" was for Joseph the have sex with as many women/girls as possible, and the teaching of deification was a means to that end in a teasing promise for his victims and their family. The temple, garments, tithing....etc, and the promise as taught in Gospel Principles that all exalted folks with having all power, glory, knowledge, and dominion as HF and Christ. The continuation of seeds, virgins, and concubines, is all centered for Smiths scam. Mormonism at that point, by the leaders, was nothing more than a sex cult, and todays church carry it on from a eternal prospective, even if by ignorance by the mainstream membership,

Say what you will about Ed Decker, one thing he got right was the title of his book, the LDS church is a for the elite "God Makers." And, it was rooted in and for sex by Smith.