Reasons People Vote Trump

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
Locked
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 8868
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University
Contact:

Re: Reasons People Vote Trump

Post by Kishkumen »

Gadianton wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2024 2:44 pm
Don't forget the reason Veritas pointed out a while back of "voting with your wallet". That's a big number. The "Wallet" people use the "outrage" people to prop themselves up. Most of these people probably just think Trump is full of crap and will do as he's told by his handlers in regard to low taxes etc.

To give you an idea of how pervasive this is, my fellow misplaced libertarian forced to be Democrat friend is a little more vocal than I am with people in the neighborhood. He had a run in a few weeks ago with a gay couple. He asked them who they were voting for and they said Trump, because they figured he'd be better on taxes (they all live on the ritzier side of the community). So my friend is like, "Do you have any idea what his plans for you guys are?" and proceeded to talk about Project 2025 or whatever, and they we're like, "really? wow, we had no idea!"
Yeah, I am continually amazed at how the perception that Republicans are good for the economy, false though it may be, nevertheless is a myth that many erroneously cling to.
User avatar
Some Schmo
God
Posts: 3191
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:21 am

Re: Reasons People Vote Trump

Post by Some Schmo »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2024 3:49 pm
That’s why demonizing Trump supporters as stupid or bigoted or cruel is self-defeating. All that does is reinforce the fear and anxiety that is driving them to support an authoritarian. It might make us feel good to take out our own fear and frustrations by using Trump supporters as a whipping boy, but the effect is to make the problem worse.

If there is a solution, I think it must involve making people less afraid, not more.
First of all, I don't see how the problem could be worse, but let's put that aside.

People should be frightened in the current political climate, because the America people have known their whole lives will be undone if Trump is elected. He has promised that over and over again, and people who say he's exaggerating or putting on a show when talking about his intentions or will be just like he was last time (which was damned bad enough) have their head firmly planted up their ass.

But what I really want to key on is the word "demonizing." Is it demonizing to tell the truth? What are you saying about Trump supporters? That they aren't stupid and cruel? If not, what? If your fallback is ignorance, I agree that's the primary driver, but it helps nobody to pretend his biggest fans aren't what they clearly are. We know who Trump is. How do you explain his support?

I'm sorry, but the fact that this country elected him once and could be about to do it again is sad commentary on the electorate. There's no getting around that.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 10636
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: Reasons People Vote Trump

Post by Res Ipsa »

Some Schmo wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2024 6:38 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2024 3:49 pm
That’s why demonizing Trump supporters as stupid or bigoted or cruel is self-defeating. All that does is reinforce the fear and anxiety that is driving them to support an authoritarian. It might make us feel good to take out our own fear and frustrations by using Trump supporters as a whipping boy, but the effect is to make the problem worse.

If there is a solution, I think it must involve making people less afraid, not more.
First of all, I don't see how the problem could be worse, but let's put that aside.

People should be frightened in the current political climate, because the America people have known their whole lives will be undone if Trump is elected. He has promised that over and over again, and people who say he's exaggerating or putting on a show when talking about his intentions or will be just like he was last time (which was damned bad enough) have their head firmly planted up their ass.

But what I really want to key on is the word "demonizing." Is it demonizing to tell the truth? What are you saying about Trump supporters? That they aren't stupid and cruel? If not, what? If your fallback is ignorance, I agree that's the primary driver, but it helps nobody to pretend his biggest fans aren't what they clearly are. We know who Trump is. How do you explain his support?

I'm sorry, but the fact that this country elected him once and could be about to do it again is sad commentary on the electorate. There's no getting around that.
I think it’s important to avoid conflating the truth with our opinions on other people’s motives.

Here’s what I think is the truth. Our brains are not evolved for the environment we live in. The portion of our brains that reasons is both relatively new and extremely fragile. Much of what we experience as reasoned decisions are actually after the fact rationalizations of non reasoned actions.

All of us are equipped with the same basic hardware. That hardware evolved in a completely different context than our brains find themselves in today. Built in features that may have been adaptive 50,000 years ago are maladaptive today. Our brains haven’t evolved to cope with the massive rate of change and flood of information they experience today. Our hard wired responses to threats evolved because they helped us survive lions at water holes. Today, those hard wired responses have us in a perpetual state of anxiety. And the cognitive biases we all share sabotage our ability to reason through the hideously complicated issues we face today.

Tribal in group/out group dynamics may have had survival advantages in the past, but today they have the capacity to destroy human civilization.

At the most fundamental level, we are all the same. We have the same hardware, with all the same cognitive biases. Those biases lead us to make an understandable but deadly mistake: pretending that those who don’t think and behave the way we do are different kinds of human, as opposed to people just like us who happen to hold different beliefs and make different decisions. That is the existential crisis we face today.

And one important difference between 50,000 years ago and today is our level of understanding of how our brains work. And that gives us the ability to manipulate each other in ways that were unimaginable a few decades ago. Like algorithms that exploit dopamine to keep you reading Facebook.

There are observable patterns in human behavior that explain how ordinary people can be manipulated into doing horrible things. And one common factor is dehumanization. The way dehumanization starts is labeling others as bad humans as opposed to fellow humans who are doing bad things. That quite easily progresses to “lesser human” and then to “not human”. That’s what permits ordinary people to kill their neighbors.

Our brains weren’t evolved to find truth. The evolved to help us survive. So, why not spend less time Trying to tell each other the truth about the other and focus on survival? If we continue in our current tribalism, civilization, and perhaps humankind, is doomed. So why not focus on putting our heads together and figuring how to not do that?
he/him
we all just have to live through it,
holding each other’s hands.


— Alison Luterman
User avatar
Some Schmo
God
Posts: 3191
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:21 am

Re: Reasons People Vote Trump

Post by Some Schmo »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2024 7:54 pm
Our brains weren’t evolved to find truth. The evolved to help us survive. So, why not spend less time Trying to tell each other the truth about the other and focus on survival? If we continue in our current tribalism, civilization, and perhaps humankind, is doomed. So why not focus on putting our heads together and figuring how to not do that?
I suppose I'm too pessimistic about humanity to hope that will ever happen. I realize I'm more of a descriptive than proscriptive guy.

I understand where you're coming from and agree with the thrust of your message, but I find only despair when I try to reason through Trump support. I can't find anything positive about that choice. I see only massive human failure, which has contributed to my general pessimism about the future of humanity.

We've got clear, visceral evidence of the consequences of climate change in our current times, and people still have the audacity to deny it. It's not demonizing or othering to observe that that is plain stupidity. And not only is it stupidity, but it's also going to ultimately kill us, making it deadly stupidity. This is the same kind of denialism that leads to Trump support.

I'm not claiming to be devoid of stupidity. I do stupid crap all the time, but I do care about making my mental model as closely resemble reality as I can. I suppose I wish that others were more naturally curious about what's true over what makes them comfortable, but they aren't. Evidence? Meh. That makes me depressed and pessimistic.

I'd like to know how we put our heads together and reason with unreasonable people (who are resistant to compromise and don't trust anyone who doesn't share their lies).
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
User avatar
Dr. Shades
Founder and Visionary
Posts: 2683
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Reasons People Vote Trump

Post by Dr. Shades »

Kishkumen wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2024 11:47 am
8. They are isolationists and believe that the world will be OK without American interventions
Do non-Americans believe the world will be OK without American interventions?
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 8868
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University
Contact:

Re: Reasons People Vote Trump

Post by Kishkumen »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2024 10:20 pm
Do non-Americans believe the world will be OK without American interventions?
Some do. I am sure Russia and China would be really happy to see US interventions end. Ukraine and Taiwan would probably be very upset.
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 10636
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: Reasons People Vote Trump

Post by Res Ipsa »

Some Schmo wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2024 8:13 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2024 7:54 pm
Our brains weren’t evolved to find truth. The evolved to help us survive. So, why not spend less time Trying to tell each other the truth about the other and focus on survival? If we continue in our current tribalism, civilization, and perhaps humankind, is doomed. So why not focus on putting our heads together and figuring how to not do that?
I suppose I'm too pessimistic about humanity to hope that will ever happen. I realize I'm more of a descriptive than proscriptive guy.

I understand where you're coming from and agree with the thrust of your message, but I find only despair when I try to reason through Trump support. I can't find anything positive about that choice. I see only massive human failure, which has contributed to my general pessimism about the future of humanity.

We've got clear, visceral evidence of the consequences of climate change in our current times, and people still have the audacity to deny it. It's not demonizing or othering to observe that that is plain stupidity. And not only is it stupidity, but it's also going to ultimately kill us, making it deadly stupidity. This is the same kind of denialism that leads to Trump support.

I'm not claiming to be devoid of stupidity. I do stupid crap all the time, but I do care about making my mental model as closely resemble reality as I can. I suppose I wish that others were more naturally curious about what's true over what makes them comfortable, but they aren't. Evidence? Meh. That makes me depressed and pessimistic.

I'd like to know how we put our heads together and reason with unreasonable people (who are resistant to compromise and don't trust anyone who doesn't share their lies).
I think that, if there were an easy or obvious solution, there would be lots of folks using it. Refraining from making the problem worse would be a good start. From there, try stuff.
he/him
we all just have to live through it,
holding each other’s hands.


— Alison Luterman
User avatar
Moksha
God
Posts: 7702
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:13 am
Location: Koloburbia

Re: Reasons People Vote Trump

Post by Moksha »

1. They have pledged to have the South rise again and wish to put an end to Yankee rule in America.

2. They view goosestepping as a good form of exercise.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
User avatar
Dr. Sunstoned
Priest
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:59 am

Re: Reasons People Vote Trump

Post by Dr. Sunstoned »

This guy summed it up pretty good.

“The fact that the stupid person is often stubborn must not blind us to the fact that he is not independent. In conversation with him, one virtually feels that one is dealing not at all with him as a person, but with slogans, catchwords, and the like that have taken possession of him. He is under a spell, blinded, misused, and abused in his very being. Having thus become a mindless tool, the stupid person will also be capable of any evil and at the same time incapable of seeing that it is evil. This is where the danger of diabolical misuse lurks, for it is this that can once and for all destroy human beings.”
― Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Letters and Papers from Prison

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/111277 ... bborn-must
User avatar
Some Schmo
God
Posts: 3191
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:21 am

Re: Reasons People Vote Trump

Post by Some Schmo »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2024 10:51 pm
I think that, if there were an easy or obvious solution, there would be lots of folks using it. Refraining from making the problem worse would be a good start. From there, try stuff.
You're confusing me with someone who doesn't mind spinning wheels.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
Locked