I don’t see how Clayton’s recollection of events in any way contradicts what we know about the revelation. What am I missing, or where is the contradiction?
Sigh. Good grief, Shades. I am glad you support the Book of Mormon Witnesses in the accuracy and fidelity of their testimonies.
Yikes.
The Eight Witnesses only signed a paper that was presented to them to sign. The Three Witnesses only saw something with their spiritual eyes. Nothing was ever signed and sworn before any sort of notary or magistrate. The attestation was to something either entirely supernatural or to an object with no provenance that was never seen again.
William Clayton, on the other hand, related something routine and mundane, with no supernatural component whatsoever, that comports very well with what we already know.
Do you not see a stark difference between the two sets of accounts?
Do you not see a stark difference between the two sets of accounts?
Do you not see that, like the witnesses, Clayton was under the influence of a powerful leader? Do you not see that he was highly motivated by his own skin in the game to present things in a particular light? I have a hard time swallowing your failure to see the potential pitfalls in that and instead focus on the woo aspect of the witnesses' testimonies. I think the most challenging element in the witness testimonies is that they were mediated by Smith, and I don't see the influence of Brigham Young and the LDS culture he set up in SLC as being any less influential in the lives of its participants.
What really cracks me up here Kish is that in one breath you want to protect Mormonism, and in another you rail against it. True word Salads. I have asked you many questions here you have ducked....but please just answer this one that you have refused to answer...."do you believe that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God?" It will help me with trying to figure out your cryptic persona.
What really cracks me up here Kish is that in one breath you want to protect Mormonism, and in another you rail against it. True word Salads. I have asked you many questions here you have ducked....but please just answer this one that you have refused to answer...."do you believe that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God?" It will help me with trying to figure out your cryptic persona.
Worse than that. All those people that did shame Mormonism out of their cyptic cave including Fawn Brodie, Juanita Brooks, Quinn, Bagley, Newell, ....they are taking the wrong approach. They are nothing against the juggernaut of Mormonism. They are confounded by Brigamite misinformation and current lies. They haven't done more for the salvation of man themselves save Widow's mite.
Worse than that. All those people that did shame Mormonism out of their cyptic cave including Fawn Brodie, Juanita Brooks, Quinn, Bagley, Newell, ....they are taking the wrong approach. They are nothing against the juggernaut of Mormonism. They are confounded by Brigamite misinformation and current lies. They haven't done more for the salvation of man themselves save Widow's mite .
I have no idea what you think you are talking about, but it has nothing to do with what I have written here. I think these writers have done good work. You do realize, right, that Michael Quinn was a believing Mormon? When did I ever take any of these writers to task in this discussion?
What really cracks me up here Kish is that in one breath you want to protect Mormonism, and in another you rail against it. True word Salads. I have asked you many questions here you have ducked....but please just answer this one that you have refused to answer...."do you believe that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God?" It will help me with trying to figure out your cryptic persona.
Markk, I don't owe you crap. I really don't. You haven't cared enough to get to know what I think over the many years I have posted here, and so you can go to blazes. You would not be asking dumb questions and petulantly demanding answers, if you had been paying attention. But you don't pay attention. You get your panties in a bunch and emote through your keyboard.
My persona is not at all cryptic to those who have paid attention. You have not paid attention. I will happily share my personal views with people who pay attention, behave politely, and approach me with a modicum of courtesy. You entered this conversation behaving like a rude teenager, and so you get what you get. Don't throw a fit.
Worse than that. All those people that did shame Mormonism out of their cyptic cave including Fawn Brodie, Juanita Brooks, Quinn, Bagley, Newell, ....they are taking the wrong approach. They are nothing against the juggernaut of Mormonism. They are confounded by Brigamite misinformation and current lies. They haven't done more for the salvation of man themselves save Widow's mite .
I have no idea what you think you are talking about, but it has nothing to do with what I have written here. I think these writers have done good work. You do realize, right, that Michael Quinn was a believing Mormon? When did I ever take any of these writers to task in this discussion?
What really cracks me up here Kish is that in one breath you want to protect Mormonism, and in another you rail against it. True word Salads. I have asked you many questions here you have ducked....but please just answer this one that you have refused to answer...."do you believe that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God?" It will help me with trying to figure out your cryptic persona.
Markk, I don't owe you crap. I really don't. You haven't cared enough to get to know what I think over the many years I have posted here, and so you can go to blazes. You would not be asking dumb questions and petulantly demanding answers, if you had been paying attention. But you don't pay attention. You get your panties in a bunch and emote through your keyboard.
My persona is not at all cryptic to those who have paid attention. You have not paid attention. I will happily share my personal views with people who pay attention, behave politely, and approach me with a modicum of courtesy. You entered this conversation behaving like a rude teenager, and so you get what you get. Don't throw a fit.
LOL...So do you believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God? You just wrote, "My persona is not at all cryptic to those who have paid attention." that is a admission of sorts to being cryptic...my questions are rather easy and simple...."do you believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God?" Why can't you answer the question, it is really not that hard.
So I promise you I am paying attention, do you believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God?
Worse than that. All those people that did shame Mormonism out of their cyptic cave including Fawn Brodie, Juanita Brooks, Quinn, Bagley, Newell, ....they are taking the wrong approach. They are nothing against the juggernaut of Mormonism. They are confounded by Brigamite misinformation and current lies. They haven't done more for the salvation of man themselves save Widow's mite .
I have no idea what you think you are talking about, but it has nothing to do with what I have written here. I think these writers have done good work. You do realize, right, that Michael Quinn was a believing Mormon? When did I ever take any of these writers to task in this discussion?
Interesting you would ask if I knew Quinn was a believer. What gaping hole in your recollection of your threads insinuates it is designated to antagonists?
Interesting you would ask if I knew Quinn was a believer. What gaping hole in your recollection of your threads insinuates it is designated to antagonists?
I am trying to figure out what your list has to do with the present discussion, as even the list itself is a grab-bag of different types.
