What Now

[Moksha]

Since MAGA represents a departure from traditional Republicanism, I suggest it be evaluated with an on balance comparison to 20th-century fascism. Think how much time is spent demonizing immigrants and how they pollute and defile the Fatherland. Look at how the first goal will be to rid the Fatherland of this unclean rabble (along with the new Chancellor's enemies).

Trumpian apologetics are a waste since the upcoming policies will be unlike anything previously experienced in North America. Remember MAGAism is not traditional Republicanism and America First was the logo of American Nazis.

[Dr. Shades]

America is a farm, and we are someone else's property.

The sooner you make peace with that fact, the happier you'll be.

Could you just clarify that, please? Two questions:

(a) Assuming most ordinary Americans are the animals, who is/are the farmer or farmers who own them?

The 1% of the 1%. Incredibly wealthy individuals, or CEOs of mega-corporations or banks, who donate money to both candidates in every race so that whoever wins will owe them bigtime, thus effectively "buying" politicians who will obey their dictates. Thanks to this, the United States is a corporatocracy that masquerades as a representative republic.

(b) Is the extremely rich Mr Trump one of the farmers?

No. The farmers don't run for office themselves.

[Gunnar]

Sad day, indeed.

Res Ipsa, agreeing with Morley here I would like to add that your efforts to grapple with internal issues here helps others of us here to do the same. I hope you can find a better balance between other activities and some participation here. This place too can be hospice care, or preparation for future renewal and growth.

I too agree with Morley. There are few contributors here I would miss more than Res Ipsa. He is one of the most rational, best informed and most fair-minded people here. Please don't go away or make yourself scarce around here, Res! I understand you impatience and dismay at the willful ignorance and refusal of some of the most conservative and misinformed conservatives here to reject reality they don't like -- especially the scientific reality of human caused climate change and pollution. Why do these people think that they know more about these issues than the 99.9% of dedicated, hard-working climate scientists who have literally spent their entire working careers studying them and trying to inform us of the dangers? It is every bit as irrational as denying that the world is a rotating spheroid in a heliocentric planetary system!

[Hound of Heaven]

I do admire your good will.

Well I mean they are not Nazis by definition. But some neo Nazis support Trump.

But not racist? The Republicans? Not all Republicans are racist, some are. My Republican bil won't rent to black folk.
Is that racist?
His son was doxxed for posting all kinds of deznat hate on the interwebs under pseudonyms. He is a virulent racist. He voted for Trump.

Not sure where we are going?

I have another thought regarding what you asked me yesterday. You inquired about the definition of a Nazi. What exactly is a Nazi? Does a Nazi cease to be a Nazi simply because the election has concluded? Does a fascist cease to be a fascist once the election concludes? Now that the election has concluded, there are only a few progressives labeling Trump supporters as Nazis and fascists, in contrast to the period leading up to the election. Clearly, a sufficient number of Republicans and rational Democrats recognized that Trump and his supporters were neither Nazis nor fascists. Even Californians were skeptical of the notion that Republicans are Nazis, as evidenced by 10 counties that shifted from blue to red.

The progressive agenda is undermining the Democratic Party. I consider myself lucky that, despite being raised in a Mormon environment, I was brought up in a predominantly blue state. The Democratic Party I grew up in was once known for its fiscal responsibility and social compassion for the majority. The Democratic Party was once viewed as the champion for the everyday man and woman who sought to maintain their employment, secure a solid healthcare plan, and ensure a comfortable retirement. However, the elite within the Democratic Party seem to be bowing to the demands of a small faction of progressives, which has led the party to stray from the desires of its core voting base. The party currently focuses on individuals crossing the border unlawfully, those who evade tax obligations, and men who identify as women. They are attempting to persuade us that abortion holds greater significance than employment, the cost of groceries, and the price of gas. This approach is deeply flawed and polarizing, ultimately failing to resonate with those who identify as democrats.

The Joe Biden I recall was a centrist throughout most of his political journey. In recent years, he permitted the progressives to shape the agenda emerging from the Oval Office, and it ultimately cost us the election. I hope that from this point on, party members realize that every time they label Republicans as Nazis, fascists, or use any other unbelievable term, there's a strong possibility that Republicans will turn it into a meme and share it with millions of voters. While it might provide a sense of satisfaction to label Republicans as Nazis or fascists, and perhaps even give a feeling of superiority, such comparisons are as far-fetched to the American electorate as calling Republicans Nephites.

From this point onward, the legacy media has diminished significantly in credibility among Americans. Alternative media is set to gain more influence, and if the Democrats fail to match the Republicans in this space, winning future elections will be a significant challenge. The typical American, regardless of whether they identify as a Democrat or a Republican, desires a comfortable life that enables them to visit the grocery store for reasonably priced food and to stop at the gas station without watching their bank account diminish by $100. Alternative liberal media should focus on more pressing issues rather than transgender rights and abortion.

[Gunnar]

This post lacks positivity and motivation. Your post serves as a glimpse into the absurdities of Progressivism.

What is inherently absurd about Progressivism? A fully rational and competitive society must be continually progressive! Do you think that there is something inherently irrational about acknowledging that much of what we have or know may not the best it could be and may benefit from further improvement and, in some cases, replacement by something better? If the human race had always had that attitude, we would never have progressed beyond Stoneage hunter gatherer societies or developed democratic, more equitable and more compassionate societies. Real honesty and rationality require that we frequently reexamine even our most cherished beliefs and biases for possible errors with a view towards correcting or replacing them whenever warranted by new and more complete evidence. What is wrong with that?

This is the process and greatest virtue of science, which in the long run makes it inherently self-correcting and helps to prevent the perpetuation of error and injustice. To reject progress or the advisability or even the possibility of progress would lead to a static, boring existence and inevitably to regression and even to destruction and death of our society, or, at least, the competitivity of our society.

[¥akaSteelhead]

let's break a thing down

MAGA
Make America Great Again

What period in time are we referring to? What past greatness?

The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”

[Hound of Heaven]

This post lacks positivity and motivation. Your post serves as a glimpse into the absurdities of Progressivism.

What is inherently absurd about Progressivism? A fully rational and competitive society must be continually progressive! Do you think that there is something inherently irrational about acknowledging that much of what we have or know may not the best it could be and may benefit from further improvement and, in some cases, replacement by something better? If the human race had always had that attitude, we would never have progressed beyond Stoneage hunter gatherer societies or developed democratic, more equitable and more compassionate societies. Real honesty and rationality require that we frequently reexamine even our most cherished beliefs and biases for possible errors with a view towards correcting or replacing them whenever warranted by new and more complete evidence. What is wrong with that?

This is the process and greatest virtue of science, which in the long run makes it inherently self-correcting and helps to prevent the perpetuation of error and injustice. To reject progress or the advisability or even the possibility of progress would lead to a static, boring existence and inevitably to regression and even to destruction and death of our society, or, at least, the competitivity of our society.

It is quite clear what the issue is with permitting progressives to determine the agenda that the Democratic Party prioritizes. In 2014, Elon Musk characterized himself as being part republican and part democrat. In 2018, he declared that he did not identify as a conservative. In 2024, he finds himself energetically on stage with Trump, believing that the principles promoted by the Democratic Party are harmful and not advantageous for the world, much less for the American populace. Four years ago, Joe Rogan identified as a supporter of Andrew Yang. Now, he finds himself interviewing Trump and backing a president whom progressives attempted to label as a Nazi.

The progressives became overly confident, believing they had secured the Democratic Party's base, and attempted to persuade average Americans that a significant portion of the country consists of Nazis, fascists, misogynists, racists, and transphobes. The progressives transformed into precisely what they claim to oppose, becoming the bully in the room. Their arrogance and pride obscured their judgment, leading them to believe that everyone in America would be better off adopting the same beliefs and lifestyle they have chosen for themselves. The progressive movement has come to view everything deemed good and beneficial in the world as a direct result of their efforts. You accomplished that in your post.

If progressives aim to lead and shape the agenda, they must understand how to engage and communicate with those who have different perspectives and lifestyles. They should cultivate a sense of humility in their actions and words. In the last decade, they have forsaken any semblance of humility, and their agenda was abruptly confronted by a majority vote for a man they naïvely regard as the reincarnation of Hitler.

[¥akaSteelhead]

The progressives became overly confident, believing they had secured the Democratic Party's base, and attempted to persuade average Americans that a significant portion of the country consists of Nazis, fascists, misogynists, racists, and transphobes. The progressives transformed into precisely what they claim to oppose, becoming the bully in the room. Their arrogance and pride obscured their judgment, leading them to believe that everyone in America would be better off adopting the same beliefs and lifestyle they have chosen for themselves. The progressive movement has come to view everything deemed good and beneficial in the world as a direct result of their efforts. You accomplished that in your post.

Not sure what to think of that. Without "progressives" willing to shout "slavery is evil" against a majority position, we'd still be engaged in the practice. Everyone in America is better off when freedom is all inclusive.

To me this election affirms some of this "nationalists (edit mine), misogynists, racists, and transphobe". And what we have seen after the election confirms this.

Belief informs action. A plurality of Americans are Christian. A 2022 Pew poll result shows that 37% of Americans still think gay marriage is a "net bad". You can't tell me that belief does not influence voting, especially when one candidate has an past administration that has a history of filing amicus briefs against anti discrimination in the work place for gays, and whose policies include attacks on funding for institutions that have trans affirmative policies.

Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”

We have voting patterns I suspect by folks who don't think they are homophobic, they have beliefs where homosexuality is a sin, so the vote for the candidate that echoes that sentiment. The pew poll above to me that is tacit admission 37% of America is defacto homophobic.

My computer keeps dying mid post, and I think I am in edit insanity.

[ceeboo]

It is quite clear what the issue is with permitting progressives to determine the agenda that the Democratic Party prioritizes. In 2014, Elon Musk characterized himself as being part republican and part democrat. In 2018, he declared that he did not identify as a conservative. In 2024, he finds himself energetically on stage with Trump, believing that the principles promoted by the Democratic Party are harmful and not advantageous for the world, much less for the American populace. Four years ago, Joe Rogan identified as a supporter of Andrew Yang. Now, he finds himself interviewing Trump and backing a president whom progressives attempted to label as a Nazi.

The progressives became overly confident, believing they had secured the Democratic Party's base, and attempted to persuade average Americans that a significant portion of the country consists of Nazis, fascists, misogynists, racists, and transphobes. The progressives transformed into precisely what they claim to oppose, becoming the bully in the room. Their arrogance and pride obscured their judgment, leading them to believe that everyone in America would be better off adopting the same beliefs and lifestyle they have chosen for themselves. The progressive movement has come to view everything deemed good and beneficial in the world as a direct result of their efforts. You accomplished that in your post.

If progressives aim to lead and shape the agenda, they must understand how to engage and communicate with those who have different perspectives and lifestyles. They should cultivate a sense of humility in their actions and words. In the last decade, they have forsaken any semblance of humility, and their agenda was abruptly confronted by a majority vote for a man they naïvely regard as the reincarnation of Hitler.

Great post, HOH.

Bingo!

[Gadianton]

Well I mean they are not Nazis by definition. But some neo Nazis support Trump.

Neo-Nazis embrace Nazism after the fact, after the atrocities. Real Nazi's were part of an evolving movement that hadn't committed atrocities yet until it did. A mob gathered at the capitol with a noose shouting "hang might Pence" while looking for Mike Pence is so silly that we can't say it goes beyond LARPing until it does. People did die that day. Trump is obviously trying to sound like Hitler to troll the left and to align the right. Hound is wrong that people aren't calling Trump or Trumpers Nazis now that the election is over. But his idea here is dangerous.

After the war ended, we really did say, "glad that's over" and bring Nazis over to America to work. Nazis who killed countless civilians in their role as soldiers said, "just doing my job" and moved on. They weren't Nazis anymore, just like Hound says.

Whether Trump's national-socialist populist movement that parallels Nazism considerably leads to societal nightmares remains to be seen. He hasn't taken office yet. The probability is that it will be bluster and inefficiency and random chaos without anything sustained. But Trump isn't acting alone -- the Christian Nationalist agenda he's promised to implement is basically Nazism. The outcome remains to be seen, and I must be following a different Internet than Hound, because the folks who were calling MAGA fascists are stilling calling them fascists.

Kevin Roberts hopes that Trump can take over as dictator with the backing of his highly organized right-wing promoters without bloodshed. Nazis were no different, if they could have taken over without bloodshed they would have. Who wouldn't?