How many plates did Joseph actually have?

[Everybody Wang Chung]

I have never understood the apologist's perspective on this story. Apparently, Joseph Smith did not use the plates during the translation process; he only needed a rock and a hat. This seems to negate Moroni's effort to drag 60 pounds of gold from Central America to NY. Through hostile territory nonetheless. If we believe BY, he made a quick detour to Manti for some dedication work. Really?

Most religions have their founding myths and mystical experiences. But in most religions, members have an allowable margin of freedom or variation to believe or not to believe these things. In TSCC belief in Joseph Smith and his stories are required. At least they were when I last interviewed for a temple recommend twenty years ago.

Agreed. And, just a friendly reminder that the two largest battles in human history conveniently left behind ZERO archaeological evidence. It's truly an astounding miracle of epic proportions.

The Book of Mormon claims that there were two battles at Hill Cumorah. The first had over two million casualties, the second had approximately 230,000. These battles would be the largest in human history. If you look at a list of [historical battles listed by casualties] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... operations you can see that no other battle comes close to matching these two battles that took place in upstate New York at or around the Hill Cumorah.

Neither battle left an ounce of evidence behind. 2,230,000 combined deaths and not a single sword, bone, breastplate, arrow head, tooth or anything has been found.

[MG 2.0]

So apologetics as a whole are a mess because The Witnesses movie may have portrayed the number of plates wrong?

Just part of a long history of getting it wrong, for example the church showing Smith pouring over the plates like a real translator instead of looking in a hat at a glowing rock.

Why does the seer stone “make it all meaningless”?

Because the translation accounts say that Joseph merely dictated the information on the stone. Are you saying God is so powerful that he can make a stone glow with words but so limited that the plates must be nearby to remind him what to show on the stone? Ridiculous, unless you’re an apologist.

Why does the fact that Joseph used language from the modern era discount the validity of the translation/transmutation of what was on the plates?

Because the translation method describes Joseph writing verbatim what was on the plates/stone. And being rebuked for doing it incorrectly.

Think about the power of A.I. in working with editing and ‘filling in’ and composing text from existing data being plugged into the system. Why are we hesitant to admit that God may be more powerful than A.I.? And that there are/were others willing to step in and help with the work. When we say, “God did it”, does that mean He did it all by his lonesome?

This isn’t the method used, historical accounts say God made the rock in the hat glow exactly what Joe should write.

I think we need to be willing to think outside the box. Unless our minds are closed, of course.

We have to entertain multiple self contradictory explanations at once to explain away how ridiculous the entire story is.

Oh, and thanks for the link, drumdude. I enjoyed the content.

Yes, I did watch it.

Always love to hear other opinions even if they disagree with my own!

Same here! Thanks for responding. It is good to get the straight scoop from the mouth of an unbeliever. It adds to the conversation.

I agree with you that it took years for the church to get it right and that it was usually outside pressure that initiated their response.

Regards,
MG

[sock puppet]

To answer the thread title question: ZERO.

[Rivendale]

To answer the thread title question: ZERO.

He probably had bucket handles and shingles.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

The two million figure in the Book of Mormon is also about as many people killed in the battle of Stalingrad. Stalingrad is largely considered the bloodiest battle in human history (in actual history, not the Book of Mormon history). It took approximately 6 months, and was fought with modern technology like tanks, airplanes, thousands of tons of artillery, machine guns, grenades and chemical warfare. It was the largest battle in the the largest war in history (again, actual history, not Book of Mormon history). (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad)

The Book of Mormon would have you believe that with technology thousands of years old, the Jaredites had deaths from one battle similar to the battle of Stalingrad? Not only is the idea that so many people could possibly die in one Book of Mormon battle completely insane, but so is the idea that no archaeological evidence for the world's largest battle has ever been found. Call me skeptical.

[drumdude]

It makes a lot more sense when you think of Joseph Smith writing fiction, based on the fantasies of a young boy. The fact he tried to sell it and brand it as such before quickly realizing religion was more profitable, I think seals the deal.

[sock puppet]

The two million figure in the Book of Mormon is also about as many people killed in the battle of Stalingrad. Stalingrad is largely considered the bloodiest battle in human history (in actual history, not the Book of Mormon history). It took approximately 6 months, and was fought with modern technology like tanks, airplanes, thousands of tons of artillery, machine guns, grenades and chemical warfare. It was the largest battle in the the largest war in history (again, actual history, not Book of Mormon history). (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad)

The Book of Mormon would have you believe that with technology thousands of years old, the Jaredites had deaths from one battle similar to the battle of Stalingrad? Not only is the idea that so many people could possibly die in one Book of Mormon battle completely insane, but so is the idea that no archaeological evidence for the world's largest battle has ever been found. Call me skeptical.

Mormon God magically transported all the archaeological items to Kolob, and brought to earth dinosaur bones--both just to confuse the heck out of mankind, sort of like human parents do when gaslighting their children just to toy with them and be mean to them.

[Marcus]

It makes a lot more sense when you think of Joseph Smith writing fiction, based on the fantasies of a young boy. The fact he tried to sell it and brand it as such before quickly realizing religion was more profitable, I think seals the deal.

I'm just starting
Shulem's thread on that!

Title of linked thread: Mormon at ages 11, 15, 24 is really Joseph Smith Jr., in disguise!

[Dr. Sunstoned]

The two million figure in the Book of Mormon is also about as many people killed in the battle of Stalingrad. Stalingrad is largely considered the bloodiest battle in human history (in actual history, not the Book of Mormon history). It took approximately 6 months, and was fought with modern technology like tanks, airplanes, thousands of tons of artillery, machine guns, grenades and chemical warfare. It was the largest battle in the the largest war in history (again, actual history, not Book of Mormon history). (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad)

The Book of Mormon would have you believe that with technology thousands of years old, the Jaredites had deaths from one battle similar to the battle of Stalingrad? Not only is the idea that so many people could possibly die in one Book of Mormon battle completely insane, but so is the idea that no archaeological evidence for the world's largest battle has ever been found. Call me skeptical.

'What is more amazing is that after two million war casualties, only the two leaders, Coriantumr and Shiz were left standing. It's like a 6th grader wrote a fantasy story.

[Fence Sitter]

The problem isn't the question of how many plates he actually had, the answer is clearly none outside of a prop, or the implausibility of storyline after storyline in the Book of Mormon. It isn't the inane story about running at top speed for an hour with a 50 lb+ weight chased by 3 different assailants waiting their turn to attack, or not even using the plates when he wrote the Book of Mormon. The problem is virtually every event/claim or story surrounding the emergence of Mormonism ranges from dubious to impossible. So, arguing about how many plates Smith may have had or whether or not he was capable of actually writing the Book of Mormon, is like trying to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic after it sank, broke up on the sea floor and mostly rotted away.