The 2024 Sampson Avard Golden Scepter Award

[Doctor Scratch]

John Welch is not a fan of DCP. One of John's motivating factors in creating Scripture Central was his deep concern with the Interpreter Foundation. The ridiculous, and ultimately harmful, articles and the attacking of other LDS organizations like FIRM, etc.

In a very short time, Scripture Central has become the only game in town that matters in terms of resources and reputation. It will be interesting to see if DCP will learn from Welch's organizational and leadership skills, or if the Interpreter completely fades into obscurity.

I think there was quite a long stretch of time where Welch viewed DCP as "useful." But given DCP's penchant for intransigence and publicly embarrassing antics, it does not surprise me that, following the "shakeup" at the Maxwell Institute, Welch decided to go his own separate way. I'm sure that the situation presented an opportunity for Welch to put some separation between the ways that the two approach apologetics.

[Doctor Scratch]

Is he a closet Nibley, Sorenson, or Gee? So wrapped up in, and invested in trying to make it all true and relative? Does it control who he is? Does that make sense it is hard to put into words what you are describing.

I'm not sure, and it is hard to say because Welch has stayed out of the "limelight," for the most part. He's clearly invested, though--he was the one who took credit for the "chaismus" discovery. But in a sense, this backfired, and he became something of a laughingstock, as chiasmus came to be thought of as the Mopologetic equivalent of Green Eggs and Ham. While that is maybe not as bad as Gee's "Two Inks" thing, or "Taper Dan," I can imagine that Welch was quite displeased over the reaction to his chiasmus ideas. I think that Welch very likely appreciated DCP's willingness to serve as "cannon fodder," so to speak--i.e., the willingness to openly and aggressively go after critics.

But here is the million dollar question (or one of them, anyway) that would clear up Welch's relationship to his "protege": What did Welch think of "Metcalfe is Butthead"? Did he laugh about this? Did he express a kind of "sourpuss" disapproval at these juvenile antics? Did he high-five Bill Hamblin when Hamblin showed up to a FARMS meeting wearing a "Beavis and Butthead" T-shirt? These may seem like silly questions, but they would actually shed a whole lot of light on Welch's character, and on the kind of Mopologist that he is, exactly. It would also provide some definitive clues about the accuracy of DCP's (rather desperate-seeming) assertions that he and Welch are "good friends." "Good" in the sense that he overlooked this sort of reckless, jackass behavior? Or "good" in the sense that he's a "comrade in arms" who's totally down for all the ribald, locker room antics?

[Doctor Scratch]

The bit from Bagley that I remembered was from episode 51b of “Mormon Expression”—it’s about 23 minutes into the episode, where Bagley describes difficulties he encountered with getting access to historical documents, and then segues into an anecdote about a meeting he had with people at the Joseph Fielding Smith Institute:

And I told him all the different volumes we were going to do in Kingdom in the West and the philosophy behind it and all this stuff. And then I began to realize, wait a minute, I'm answering all these questions, and they're not telling me anything. So I stopped, and they had, it was funny, because they had all the staff, and Barney, or not, it was, what's wrong, Esplin.

He's now head of the Joseph Smith Papers Project. Esplin was really belligerent. The rest of them were fairly friendly.

Tom Alexander was a little standoffish. But the dark, menacing presence in the room was Jack Welch, the law professor, the FARMS founder, the eminence grise, and the big fish, it turns out. I don't think he had a position at the Institute, but they all had to come to him to get permission to breathe, to do anything.

And he was very belligerent. And so finally, I said, well, I've shown you mine, you guys show me yours. And everybody looks at Jack, and Jack goes, well, we have proposed some plans, but we have not yet had them authorized.

So we can't tell you anything.

So, it would appear that Welch was calling the shots—or at least “running interference”—at a Church institute where he did not even have an official position. Interesting that Bagley says they had to go to him to “get permission to breathe.”

[Tom]

The bit from Bagley that I remembered was from episode 51b of “Mormon Expression”—it’s about 23 minutes into the episode, where Bagley describes difficulties he encountered with getting access to historical documents, and then segues into an anecdote about a meeting he had with people at the Joseph Fielding Smith Institute:

And I told him all the different volumes we were going to do in Kingdom in the West and the philosophy behind it and all this stuff. And then I began to realize, wait a minute, I'm answering all these questions, and they're not telling me anything. So I stopped, and they had, it was funny, because they had all the staff, and Barney, or not, it was, what's wrong, Esplin.

He's now head of the Joseph Smith Papers Project. Esplin was really belligerent. The rest of them were fairly friendly.

Tom Alexander was a little standoffish. But the dark, menacing presence in the room was Jack Welch, the law professor, the FARMS founder, the eminence grise, and the big fish, it turns out. I don't think he had a position at the Institute, but they all had to come to him to get permission to breathe, to do anything.

And he was very belligerent. And so finally, I said, well, I've shown you mine, you guys show me yours. And everybody looks at Jack, and Jack goes, well, we have proposed some plans, but we have not yet had them authorized.

So we can't tell you anything.

So, it would appear that Welch was calling the shots—or at least “running interference”—at a Church institute where he did not even have an official position. Interesting that Bagley says they had to go to him to “get permission to breathe.”

I don’t know the precise time period to which Bagley was referring, but Welch was the institute’s director of publications from about 1999 to 2004. I don’t know why all would defer to him, however. He wasn’t the director.

[Moksha]

I don’t know why all would defer to him, however. He wasn’t the director.

Could he have been anointed in a secret ceremony where he had to pin a tapir tale on Dr. Peterson?

[Tom]

I don’t know why all would defer to him, however. He wasn’t the director.

Could he have been anointed in a secret ceremony where he had to pin a tapir tale on Dr. Peterson?

Very possible. Thereby hangs a tail.

[Doctor Scratch]

I don’t know the precise time period to which Bagley was referring, but Welch was the institute’s director of publications from about 1999 to 2004. I don’t know why all would defer to him, however. He wasn’t the director.

Yes: my sense is that *that* was indeed the time period when the meeting took place. Based on the podcast interview, it sounded like Bagley was in the midst of doing his research for Blood of the Prophets, which came out in 2002. So the timeline fits.

As to the deferential treatment towards Welch…. Well, it would seem that a pattern is emerging….

[Markk]

I'm not sure, and it is hard to say because Welch has stayed out of the "limelight," for the most part. He's clearly invested, though--he was the one who took credit for the "chaismus" discovery. But in a sense, this backfired, and he became something of a laughingstock, as chiasmus came to be thought of as the Mopologetic equivalent of Green Eggs and Ham. While that is maybe not as bad as Gee's "Two Inks" thing, or "Taper Dan," I can imagine that Welch was quite displeased over the reaction to his chiasmus ideas. I think that Welch very likely appreciated DCP's willingness to serve as "cannon fodder," so to speak--i.e., the willingness to openly and aggressively go after critics.

I am not sure that Dan believes half the stuff he says...he just throws crap at the wall and hopes it sticks. I can't believe his peers were buying the Tapir line, at least most of them. Gee is in his own world and will say anything but the truth in a vain support to protect is "life's work."

I have to mention....If you haven't watched the Mormon Stories episode on the Book of Abraham with Ritner and RFM, at least watch the last episode where Ritner destroys Gee as a Egyptologist and scholar and paints a picture of just how stubborn he is to his defense of the Book of Abraham. I started the link at the time Ritner discusses Gee's dishonest approach https://youtu.be/H70IdpLHhZE?t=11598

But Welch and chiasmus had legs and at first thought seemed striking, at least at first looks. The Book of Mormon does have chiasmus. It certainly deserved a look. When it fell apart, especially with things like The Late War, it had to have been deflating to him given all the accolades he received for "finally proving the Book of Mormon could not have been the product of a 19th century Farm Boy. "

[Markk]

But here is the million dollar question (or one of them, anyway) that would clear up Welch's relationship to his "protege": What did Welch think of "Metcalfe is Butthead"? Did he laugh about this? Did he express a kind of "sourpuss" disapproval at these juvenile antics? Did he high-five Bill Hamblin when Hamblin showed up to a FARMS meeting wearing a "Beavis and Butthead" T-shirt? These may seem like silly questions, but they would actually shed a whole lot of light on Welch's character, and on the kind of Mopologist that he is, exactly. It would also provide some definitive clues about the accuracy of DCP's (rather desperate-seeming) assertions that he and Welch are "good friends." "Good" in the sense that he overlooked this sort of reckless, jackass behavior? Or "good" in the sense that he's a "comrade in arms" who's totally down for all the ribald, locker room antics?

My guess is he didn't express anything. From what I have read and seen of him, which is not a whole lot, if he was a food item he would be a piece of toast without butter. He comes off as a person that if he was mowing his lawn, and had to fart, he would turn off the mower and go to the rest room to do so. LoL....my father was like that.

[I Have Questions]

Jack Welch’s biography notes that he was a contributing scholar on The Joseph Smith Papers project. Was Peterson not invited to that party?