The child abusing polygamist legacy of Joseph Smith continues

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drumdude
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The child abusing polygamist legacy of Joseph Smith continues

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https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/pol ... -116596355

PHOENIX -- A polygamist religious leader who claimed more than 20 spiritual “wives” including 10 underage girls was sentenced to 50 years in prison on Monday for coercing girls as young as 9 years old to submit to criminal sex acts with him and other adults, and for scheming to kidnap them from protective custody.

Samuel Bateman, whose small group was an offshoot of the sect once led by Warren Jeffs, had pleaded guilty to a yearslong scheme to transport girls across state lines for his sex crimes, and later to kidnap some of them from protective custody.

Under the agreement, Bateman pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit transportation of a minor for sexual activity, which carries a sentence of 10 years to life imprisonment, and one count of conspiracy to commit kidnapping, which is punishable by up to life imprisonment. He was sentenced to 50 years on each count, to be served concurrently.

The rest of the charges were dismissed as part of the agreement.

Authorities say that Bateman, 48, tried to start an offshoot of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints based in the neighboring communities of Colorado City, Arizona, and Hildale, Utah. The fundamentalist group, also known as FLDS, split from the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints after Mormons officially abandoned polygamy in 1890.

U.S. District Court Judge Susan Brnovich sentenced Bateman after hearing statements in court by three teenage girls about the trauma they still struggle to overcome. Although they gave their names in court, The Associated Press does not name victims of sexual crime, and some appeared to still be minors.

“You should not have the opportunity to be free and never have the opportunity to be around young women, “ Brnovich told Bateman, noting that for a man of his age the 50-year sentence was effectively a life sentence.

"You took them from their homes, from their families and made them into sex slaves,” the judge said. “You stripped them of their innocence and childhood.”

A short competency hearing that was closed to the public was held just before sentencing to discuss a doctor’s assessment of Bateman’s mental health. The defense had argued that Bateman could have benefited from a maximum of 20 years of psychiatric treatment behind bars before being released.

The girls told the court, sometimes addressing Bateman himself, how they grappled to develop relationships in high school, among other struggles. Now living with foster families, they said they had received much support from trusted adults outside their community.
It’s really like Joseph Smith created the road map and fundamentalist Mormons just keep following it.

All so that Mormon God could seal families together, something that would later be perfectly possible without plural marriage.
I Have Questions
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Re: The child abusing polygamist legacy of Joseph Smith continues

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A poster here recently defended this type of thing as simply Joseph Smith doing his best to create a dynastic organisation.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Kishkumen
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Re: The child abusing polygamist legacy of Joseph Smith continues

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I Have Questions wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2024 11:04 am
A poster here recently defended this type of thing as simply Joseph Smith doing his best to create a dynastic organisation.
Really? Joseph Smith married nine-year-olds? And here I thought 14 was bad enough!
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Dr. Shades
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Re: The child abusing polygamist legacy of Joseph Smith continues

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Sex was the motive.
Dynasty was the excuse.
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Kishkumen
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Re: The child abusing polygamist legacy of Joseph Smith continues

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Dr. Shades wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2024 12:48 pm
Sex was the motive.
Dynasty was the excuse.
Nah. Both sex and dynasty were motives. Dynasty being the excuse is for those who are understandably less concerned about understanding than condemnation. If the motives are simple, then the rejection can be simple. Leaving Mormonism is often about reducing cognitive load. Mormonism will never be a big religion because it is too complicated. People don't like to spend too much time thinking about things. If you have to think too much, then surely there must be something wrong with it. So, why not just free yourself of that hard labor and leave?

I am not saying that Smith's polygamy was a good thing. I think it was monstrously stupid. We could say that it is a good thing that the LDS Church has left polygamy mostly (not completely) behind, and take that as a win. Instead some want to focus on the fringe nut jobs who use polygamy to commit child abuse and continue to blame Mormonism for it. It is more likely the case that this guy was already an abuser and that he just used fringe Mormonism to do what he always wanted and probably already did anyways.
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Re: The child abusing polygamist legacy of Joseph Smith continues

Post by Dr. Shades »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2024 1:40 pm
Dr. Shades wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2024 12:48 pm
Sex was the motive.
Dynasty was the excuse.
Nah. Both sex and dynasty were motives. Dynasty being the excuse is for those who are understandably less concerned about understanding than condemnation. If the motives are simple, then the rejection can be simple. Leaving Mormonism is often about reducing cognitive load. Mormonism will never be a big religion because it is too complicated. People don't like to spend too much time thinking about things. If you have to think too much, then surely there must be something wrong with it. So, why not just free yourself of that hard labor and leave?
Hmm. So I guess we should take a closer look at the motivations of Mr. Bateman, the guy described in the opening post, instead of just reducing our cognitive load.
Instead some want to focus on the fringe nut jobs who use polygamy to commit child abuse and continue to blame Mormonism for it. It is more likely the case that this guy was already an abuser and that he just used fringe Mormonism to do what he always wanted and probably already did anyways.
Let me guess: Joseph Smith, Jr. is the exception to those two sentences, right? If so, what is our justification for excepting him?
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Re: The child abusing polygamist legacy of Joseph Smith continues

Post by Marcus »

...Leaving Mormonism is often about reducing cognitive load. Mormonism will never be a big religion because it is too complicated. People don't like to spend too much time thinking about things. If you have to think too much, then surely there must be something wrong with it. So, why not just free yourself of that hard labor and leave?...
The first sentence can be right if the cognitive load was cognitive dissonance due to the LDS religion having so many faulty and untrue parts.

But the rest of the explanation doesn't define it that way, and I heartily disagree. People leaving Mormonism due to wanting to avoid hard thinking is just "lazy learner" and "you never really had a testimony" and other obnoxious assumptions, fancied up a little. It's still an insult to many, many "hard thinkers" who have left a religion they now know to be fraudulent.
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Re: The child abusing polygamist legacy of Joseph Smith continues

Post by drumdude »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2024 2:56 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2024 1:40 pm
Nah. Both sex and dynasty were motives. Dynasty being the excuse is for those who are understandably less concerned about understanding than condemnation. If the motives are simple, then the rejection can be simple. Leaving Mormonism is often about reducing cognitive load. Mormonism will never be a big religion because it is too complicated. People don't like to spend too much time thinking about things. If you have to think too much, then surely there must be something wrong with it. So, why not just free yourself of that hard labor and leave?
Hmm. So I guess we should take a closer look at the motivations of Mr. Bateman, the guy described in the opening post, instead of just reducing our cognitive load.
Instead some want to focus on the fringe nut jobs who use polygamy to commit child abuse and continue to blame Mormonism for it. It is more likely the case that this guy was already an abuser and that he just used fringe Mormonism to do what he always wanted and probably already did anyways.
Let me guess: Joseph Smith, Jr. is the exception to those two sentences, right? If so, what is our justification for excepting him?
I have to agree with shades here, Kish. You accuse others of reducing their cognitive load by making assumptions and then proceed to do exactly that by assuming this guy “probably just used Mormonism as a cover to do what he always wanted to.”

There are a lot of details available in the indictment here:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... l-bateman/

And his Facebook page here:

https://m.Facebook.com/samuel.bateman.12/

I think it’s a bit like saying if a mobster kills someone, it’s because they just like to kill and probably joined The Family to be able to murder. When in fact a lot of these monsters are born into a culture of violence. There’s an unbroken line of polygamy and abuse between this guy and Joseph Smith. That’s the legacy I am talking about. And it’s not just a couple isolated incidents, this is still organized groups doing this.

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Re: The child abusing polygamist legacy of Joseph Smith continues

Post by Kishkumen »

drumdude wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2024 3:26 pm
I have to agree with shades here, Kish. You accuse others of reducing their cognitive load by making assumptions and then proceed to do exactly that by assuming this guy “probably just used Mormonism as a cover to do what he always wanted to.”

There are a lot of details available in the indictment here:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... l-bateman/

And his Facebook page here:

https://m.Facebook.com/samuel.bateman.12/

I think it’s a bit like saying if a mobster kills someone, it’s because they just like to kill and probably joined The Family to be able to murder. When in fact a lot of these monsters are born into a culture of violence. There’s an unbroken line of polygamy and abuse between this guy and Joseph Smith. That’s the legacy I am talking about. And it’s not just a couple isolated incidents, this is still organized groups doing this.

Image
OK, these are fair criticisms. I can imagine making the argument that Jeffs concocted a more virulent form of Mormonism that Bateman imitated. It is possible that Bateman, sick as it obviously is, genuinely believed that marrying and abusing nine-year-old girls was the will of God. I just don't see that as a necessary outcome of early Mormon polygamy. It is a possible outcome, sure. But not a necessary one. What I often see on this board is a rush to connect the Joseph Smith's marriages to teenagers to Jeffs' or others' abuse of small children. I don't approve of any of it, but I see a difference there, and I don't know how anyone justifies marrying a nine-year-old by pointing to that time Joseph Smith married a fourteen-year-old. But, hey, there are all kinds of bad actors out there, who will use any sort of justification or believe in any kind of "divine" atrocities.
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Re: The child abusing polygamist legacy of Joseph Smith continues

Post by drumdude »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2024 3:46 pm
drumdude wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2024 3:26 pm
I have to agree with shades here, Kish. You accuse others of reducing their cognitive load by making assumptions and then proceed to do exactly that by assuming this guy “probably just used Mormonism as a cover to do what he always wanted to.”

There are a lot of details available in the indictment here:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... l-bateman/

And his Facebook page here:

https://m.Facebook.com/samuel.bateman.12/

I think it’s a bit like saying if a mobster kills someone, it’s because they just like to kill and probably joined The Family to be able to murder. When in fact a lot of these monsters are born into a culture of violence. There’s an unbroken line of polygamy and abuse between this guy and Joseph Smith. That’s the legacy I am talking about. And it’s not just a couple isolated incidents, this is still organized groups doing this.

Image
OK, these are fair criticisms. I can imagine making the argument that Jeffs concocted a more virulent form of Mormonism that Bateman imitated. It is possible that Bateman, sick as it obviously is, genuinely believed that marrying and abusing nine-year-old girls was the will of God. I just don't see that as a necessary outcome of early Mormon polygamy. It is a possible outcome, sure. But not a necessary one. What I often see on this board is a rush to connect the Joseph Smith's marriages to teenagers to Jeffs' or others' abuse of small children. I don't approve of any of it, but I see a difference there, and I don't know how anyone justifies marrying a nine-year-old by pointing to that time Joseph Smith married a fourteen-year-old. But, hey, there are all kinds of bad actors out there, who will use any sort of justification or believe in any kind of "divine" atrocities.
The biggest issue I have is that without Joseph Smith, there would be no American polygamy, and thus none of the abuses around it that we continue to see, 100+ years later. The church can't explain why God commanded such a blight on society, especially when it was so short lived. Nothing of value was gained, and a torrent of unnecessary capricious suffering was inflicted upon women and children and continues to be.

If you strike a match at a gas station, however small the flame is, you're responsible for the damage done when the fire explodes out of control.
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