Question for Don Bradley

[Shulem]

Of course I remember starting the thread with a Scripture Central article. But I could not, COULD NOT, figure out what the SC stood for so I asked you to clarify. I hope you don't think less of me for that, but I confess my shortcoming.

PS. I just watched your latest video. Good job.

Thanks!

You confess your shortcomings, and we all love you for it. You are genuinely you, and you do what you want to do. I think we all respect that even when we have a different view.

Exactly.

[Shulem]

SCRIPTURE CENTRAL and their lying apologists can go to hell because they trample over the prophets and apostles of former Mormonism and throw them under the bus while foaming at the mouth and cursing and swearing like the evil demons they are! You too, Dan Peterson, you're demon! Not only that, you're a Goddamn coward.

Prophets testify against modern apostates who deny, lie, and are too afraid to face Shulem's wrath here at Discuss Mormonism:

Because of the wickedness of a part of the people of Lehi, they were cursed with a black skin and became a degraded and a loathsome people. These were called Lamanites, after their first leader in rebellion.

I trust, my brethren and sisters, that the spirit that has characterized this gathering, and the other sessions of this conference, may continue to the end, and that I may be a partaker of it to the extent that my tongue may be loosed and that the inspiration of the Lord
may flow through me, during the time I stand here.

<snip>

History has repeated itself many times — children of God who have followed his teachings have been preserved, and those who have refused, have gone into darkness and have been destroyed. Take the American Indians as another illustration. Their ancestors were a white and delightsome people, brought away by the Lord before the destruction of Jerusalem, in order that they might have an opportunity to develop upon this favored land. Because, they refused to keep the commandments of God, because they disobeyed the law and determined to be a law unto themselves, they retrograded and were cursed with a dark skin and became the unfortunate race that wandered over this great western hemisphere for generations, before the coming of the white man.

F-u SCRIPTURE CENTRAL! You lying punks. Discuss Mormonism rocks and sets the bar in this forum. You apologists are corrupt. You're liars! We have you by the balls.

[Shulem]

And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a  skin of blackness to come upon them.

Basically, Joseph Smith equates his personal racist views that white and delightsome people are "not" physically attracted (enticed) to people of color because dark people are loathsome looking. How hardly was Joseph Smith attracted to dark women, surely he preferred women having fair and lily-white complexions. Right?

Vile apologists challenge the assertion that Nephi's so-called skin curse has anything to do with actual skin color or physical attractiveness:

Clues throughout the Book of Mormon strongly support the symbolic interpretation of references to black, dark, and white “skins.” For instance, the earliest descriptions of people as either white or dark come in Nephi’s foundational vision. Rather than being literal references to skin color, these labels appear to figuratively link different people or groups back to the white and dark symbols of Lehi’s dream, in 1 Nephi  8. Likewise, throughout the Book of Mormon dark is frequently paired with terms such as filthy and loathsome that are clearly intended to describe the spiritual state of the Lamanites, not their lack of hygiene or physical attractiveness.

But the contrasting nature between dark and light skin was expressed over the pulpit by a General Authority in General Conference and I don't think anyone disagreed with him at that time because Mormons were a racist people. Afterall, interracial marriage was strongly discouraged and blacks were not worthy to hold the priesthood. But here are the sentiments of one such leader made right after citing D&C 121:35,36 concerning doctrines of the priesthood:

Why I am gentile and my neighbor is Jew;

Why some have lovely white-skin faces — others born in colored races;

Why some are sound in body and mind — others deformed and some born blind;

Why some live but a moment or so — others for years before they go;

Why some were born when our Lord held sway — others held for this latter day;

Why? I wish I knew.

Note that each example above provides contrast. White-skin faces are considered lovely but colored races is just the opposite as far as racist Mormons are concerned. If the word "lovely" had not been used to describe white-skin faces then it could be argued that the contrast is simply noting the difference between black & white or light & dark. But such is not the case with Mormon racism.

So, what do you think of that, Don?

[Jesse Pinkman]

Is Don still a participant here? I would genuinely love to hear his thoughts.

[Shulem]

Is Don still a participant here? I would genuinely love to hear his thoughts.

Yes, he is a participant and I've had several cordial conversations with him in the recent past.

[Shulem]

Chapter twenty-six of 2 Nephi is a bundle of prophecies referring to the FUTURE and futuristic people upon the land of promise. Bear in mind that Nephi was born at Jerusalem in about 615 BC, afterward he fled into Arabia while yet a youth so his experiences and memories of life in Jerusalem were limited and perceived through the mentality of youthfulness. Or in other words, young Nephi couldn't have known much about life and the world around him outside the confines of his native homeland. But later in life when he was a mature adult in America, he foretells events as if he sees the future in vision:

• many generations shall pass away
• there shall be signs given unto my people of his birth, and also of his death and resurrection
• I prophesy unto you concerning the last days

etc.

Again, the only memories Nephi had of his former life in Jerusalem were long ago and limited to that of a youth's experience while living under the roof of his parents care. But interestingly enough, Nephi ends the chapter making racist comments that positively link skin color to one's race whether they are light skinned or dark. And, bear in mind that dark skinned people that Nephi would have known while at Jerusalem would have been black Africans or darker skinned people of foreign countries.

So, let's look at what Nephi Joseph Smith had to say about skin color and race:

For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

Note how three examples of opposites are tendered in the above statement:

1) black and white
2) bond and free
3) male and female

The black and white refers to skin color which is a genetic product or result of one's race whether they be Jew, Gentile, or African, the latter of which Nephi would have had little experience or knowledge from his early memories of childhood. But Nephi is trying to make it clear that God remembers the heathen and loves everyone to include Jews and Gentiles, regardless of their skin color!

Bottom line: When Nephi refers to the cursing whereby his brethren had became like unto a flint it is therefore understood that the skin of blackness referred to bodily skin color and its replication through intermarriage was the natural genetic result.

Wouldn't you agree, Don?

[Shulem]

...However, despite their genetic and geographical isolation, the Lamanites...

Nephi, Laman, and Lemuel were brothers having the same mother and father. Please explain your use of genetic in association with seed as it relates to the curse at hand.

The footnote at the bottom of the page includes this clip:

The consequences they report as part of this curse evoke those of Cain's curse: the Lamanites are described as having been cut off from God's presence, isolated from the Nephites...

Bradley makes a distinction between genetic isolation and geographical isolation but my focus is on what he means by genetic isolation. Bringing up the curse of Cain in the footnote reminds me of prevalent Mormon teachings about Cain being the father of the black race, having direct association with priesthood restriction due to race, and passed down through the loins of Ham into black Africa.

Recall Nephi saying, "they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

Nephi then quotes God saying, "I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people."

But at this critical juncture we are informed that blessed Nephites who mix their seed with cursed Lamanites will end up with children having the same curse whether they like it or not. The Lord would ensure that the cursed seed will bear the same mandatory punishment.

And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.

But please note that the curse or punishment of geographical isolation is not necessarily enforced by God because man can live where they choose but the punishment of breaching Nephite genetic isolation is outside the bounds of man because those children will be born with dark skin as a natural consequence of mixing the seed.

Is that what you meant by genetic isolation, Don?

[Moksha]

Clues throughout the Book of Mormon strongly support the symbolic interpretation of references to black, dark, and white “skins.”

I think the folks at Scripture Central are now leaning toward the explanation that the Lamanites were cursed with Asiatic/Siberian DNA. Curses have to roll with the genetic evidence and still preserve Mormon prejudice.

[Shulem]

DNA.

We may easily judge how DNA is the result of skin color as a "mark" for Alma's description of pigmentation being passed down via racial intermingling of the seeds by which the fruit of the loins is manifest with darker skin. This particular mark was placed on their offspring by the hand of God, not by man's hand. That has ever been the belief of all Mormons until lying modern apologists have come up with inventive ideas to circumscribe around the obvious intent of what the text implies. The Lamanites were also said to mark their bodies with temporary colorings using paints or dyed cloth, but the mark on the epidermis through mingling seeds was by God's design and the natural result of mixing seed.

6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.

7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.

8 And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not mix and believe in incorrect traditions which would prove their destruction.

9 And it came to pass that whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed.

You'll notice that apologetic methods to explain away the embarrassing racism within the Book of Mormon is similar to that of apologetics to explain how the Explanations of the Facsimiles tendered by Joseph Smith make perfect sense from a certain point of view but it's all snake oil. Mormon apologists are deceptive and their foundation on which they operate is based on deceit.

I very much would like to hear what Bradley has to say about all this.

[Shulem]

Ok, fine, since Bradley doesn't want to or is unavailable to answer a question about racism briefly mentioned in his book, I'll take the liberty of consulting Wikipedia in order to better understand the several secondary effects of the curse. Obviously, the primary effect was being cut off from the presence of the Lord and losing out on the blessings of the gospel under Nephi's spiritual management. But what of those secondary effects? Surely the marked skin of blackness was one of those secondary effects relating to the curse itself. Here's Bradley's quote with my added highlights:

Nephi attributed to the curse several secondary effects on the Lamanites: "because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey" (2 Ne. 5:21-24). To keep his own people from this curse, Nephi prophetically prohibits the Nephites from marrying Lamanites, claiming that the Lamanites were marked with "a skin of blackness" to discourage such intermarriage (vv. 21-23).

However, despite their genetic and geographical isolation, the Lamanites were to fulfill an important function in the Nephite covenant. If Nephi's people failed to keep God's commandments—a condition for their prospering in their land of promise—then:

[The Lamanites] shall be a scourge unto [Nephi's] seed, to stir them up in remembrance of me; and insomuch as they will not hearken unto me, and hearken unto my words, they shall scourge them even unto destruction. (2 Ne. 5:25)

This threat and promise would shape much of the rest of Nephite history.

now this

Genetic isolate

A genetic isolate is a population of organisms that has little to no genetic mixing with other organisms of the same species due to geographic isolation or other factors that prevent reproduction. Genetic isolates form new species through an evolutionary process known as speciation. All modern species diversity is a product of genetic isolates and evolution.

[So, likewise, Nephite population must not mix with Lamanites in order to keep the chosen genes pure]

The current distribution of genetic differences and isolation within and among populations is also influenced by genetic processes. The resulting genetic diversity within a species' distribution range is frequently unequally distributed, and significant disparities can occur when population dispersion and isolation are critical for species survival.

[Separation was key in keeping the Nephites from partaking of the Lamanite curse to include both primary and secondary effects]

Genetic isolation is a population of organisms that has little to no genetic mixing with other organisms of the same species.

[It's obvious that readers of the Book of Mormon will recognize the curse included a skin of blackness placed upon the Lamanites by God himself via natural genetic means. On the other hand, the super-duper righteous Nephites could remain a white and delightsome people by not mixing with their darker counterparts.]