Muslims praying in a relief society room with images of Christ covered

[ceeboo]

Please tell your wife that I wasn't lecturing her (I don't even know her), rather, I made a post, on a message board, concerning the practice of Muslims praying directly to Muhammad (In my view, this is a clear) - I also stated that individual Muslims (like any other large group of people) have a wide variety of beliefs that run all over a wide spectrum.

Having said that, if your wife would like to discuss anything with me, please let her know that I am willing to do so.

Ha! But then you don't know the most of the other folks you're talking to here, either. That hasn't stopped you from saying what you think.

I was extending respect/courtesy to your wife (and you) - While it is true that I typically say what I think, I usually don't say things to a non-board member on the board (especially if this non-board member is a spouse/son/daughter/parent of a board member) - It's just a really bad idea in my opinion. Like I said before, if your wife would like to engage me on this (or other things related to Mohammed/Quran or Evangelical Christianity/Bible) I would be happy to engage.

Almost universally, folks here have told you that Muslims don't pray to Mohammed.

Muslims do pray to Mohammed (clearly).

The fact that Muslims don't pray to Mohammed

This is not a fact - Muslims do pray to Mohammed.

[Morley]

Ha! But then you don't know the most of the other folks you're talking to here, either. That hasn't stopped you from saying what you think.

I was extending respect/courtesy to your wife (and you) - While it is true that I typically say what I think, I usually don't say things to a non-board member on the board (especially if this non-board member is a spouse/son/daughter/parent of a board member) - It's just a really bad idea in my opinion. Like I said before, if your wife would like to engage me on this (or other things related to Mohammed/Quran or Evangelical Christianity/Bible) I would be happy to engage.

Almost universally, folks here have told you that Muslims don't pray to Mohammed.

Muslims do pray to Mohammed (clearly).

The fact that Muslims don't pray to Mohammed

This is not a fact - Muslims do pray to Mohammed.

I’m trying to figure out where the hell you’re getting this, Ceeboo. I know this is common in Evangelical arguments, but it seems pretty thin to me.

Who are some contemporary Muslims who agree with this?

[ceeboo]

What’s the link for your cut and paste, ceeboo?

https://answering-islam.org/authors/sha ... ammad.html

[Morley]

What’s the link for your cut and paste, ceeboo?

https://answering-islam.org/authors/sha ... ammad.html

That’s what I thought. (I’d looked it up before I changed my post above.)

It an anti-Islam site. You know that, right?

[Jersey Girl]

https://answering-islam.org/authors/sha ... ammad.html

That’s what I thought. (I’d looked it up before I changed my post above.)

It an anti-Islam site. You know that, right?

Here's an article about Sam Shamoun. Likely an extremist crackpot group here but look at how he's described. Excerpts and commentary to follow:

“Sam ‘the Man’ Shamoun is a force of nature – unhinged, unashamed, unbothered warrior for Christ with scripture on his heart and fire on his tongue,” a commenter says on a Pints with Aquinas video. “This dude rules.”

This dude rules? What about God?

Sam makes his point, exposes his opponents, and then reminds them he’s winning at every step.

Sounds arrogant.

Any adversary unlucky enough to misspeak will be invited to Jesus: “You don’t believe what your book/prophet/scholars believe. Leave the darkness.”

That's an invitation to Jesus? Is that how Jesus spoke?

“I know I’m putting myself at jeopardy,” he admits on Pints with Aquinas. “All it takes is just the wrong Muslim to be at the wrong place or the right place for him and he can either shoot me or behead me. But you know we’re trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ, not because I’m a hero. That’s not it. I do it because I feel compelled to, meaning I really believe it’s the Holy Spirit that’s put this word in my heart to be up there upfront about my faith.”

Oh boy.

Sam incinerated Muslim apologist Shabir Ally in 2000 at the University of Iowa. Here was a layman (no Bible college, no seminary) taking on a PhD student (Shabir Ally), and he embarrassed him.

Incinerated?

Overnight, the auto-didactic became a sensation.

Who is the object of worship here? Who is being elevated?

https://www.godreports.com/2024/08/unhi ... rt-at-six/

Anyway...I was going to use Religious Tolerance. Org as a source here but looks like they took it offline last year. What a loss!

[I Have Questions]

https://answering-islam.org/authors/sha ... ammad.html

That’s what I thought. (I’d looked it up before I changed my post above.)

It an anti-Islam site. You know that, right?

Is there a facepalm emoji?

[Physics Guy]

In my experience dead people are more consistently unresponsive conversational partners than living people.

This is a serious point, though. You have tried to support the charge "Muslims worship Muhammad" by showing "Muslims pray to Muhammad". It is not clear (a) that wishing peace upon someone is praying to them or (b) that praying to someone is worshipping them.

Why do you think (a) and (b)?

[Morley]

Almost universally, folks here have told you that Muslims don't pray to Mohammed.

Muslims do pray to Mohammed (clearly).

The fact that Muslims don't pray to Mohammed

This is not a fact - Muslims do pray to Mohammed.

Muslims don't believe that they pray to Mohammed. Mohammed was put off by the Christian practice of pleading to God through various saints and explicitly banned the practice of praying through intermediaries. It's an important tenant of their faith that there are no intermediaries between them and God.

As you know, Ceeboo. I like to engage about theological discussion as much as anyone else. However, when someone tells me that they either believe or don't believe something, I generally take them at their word. For instance, by quoting the language in the New Testament, I might be able to make the case that Christian Trinitarianism is, in fact, a form of polytheism. By quoting the Talmud, I might be able to make the case that Jews support slavery. However, I take Christians at their word when they say that they believe there is but one God. I take Jews at their word when they say they don't believe that God supports slavery. One can debate the scriptures, but it's a keystone of good faith argument to accept a person of another faith's word when they tell you that they believe something.

Telling a bunch of Mormons, and others interested in Mormonism, that Muslims are praying to Mohammed is no different than telling a Muslim to their face that they pray to Mohammed. You're asserting something about the faith that no Muslim I know thinks is true. It's kind of offensive to when you maintain that you know the faith's intentions better than its adherents do.

I really don't wish to be harsh about this, but I don't know of another way to put this across. Do with this what you will.

Peace to you, and peace to all the Christians who came before you.

[ceeboo]

Muslims do pray to Mohammed (clearly).
This is not a fact - Muslims do pray to Mohammed.

Muslims don't believe that they pray to Mohammed.

I think this is likely the case for many Muslims - But, what individual Muslims believe has no impact on whether they pray to Mohammed or not - Clearly, they do.

As you know, Ceeboo. I like to engage about theological discussion as much as anyone else. However, when someone tells me that they either believe or don't believe something, I generally take them at their word.

Can I test that with you? If a Muslim told you that they didn't believe that the Quran (Allah's word) teaches that a Muslim can marry and have intercourse with a young girl (a girl who has not reached puberty yet), would you simply believe them?

It's kind of offensive to when you maintain that you know the faith's intentions better than its adherents do.

Reading the words of salat (literally) seems fairly innocent to me.

I really don't wish to be harsh about this, but I don't know of another way to put this across. Do with this what you will.

I don't think you're being harsh.

Peace to you, and peace to all the Christians who came before you.

Thanks! Peace to you as well.

[Morley]

Muslims don't believe that they pray to Mohammed.

I think this is likely the case for many Muslims - But, what individual Muslims believe has no impact on whether they pray to Mohammed or not - Clearly, they do.

It's not the case for individual Muslims. It's the case for every Muslim.

As you know, Ceeboo. I like to engage about theological discussion as much as anyone else. However, when someone tells me that they either believe or don't believe something, I generally take them at their word.

Can I test that with you? If a Muslim told you that they didn't believe that the Quran (Allah's word) teaches that a Muslim can marry and have intercourse with a young girl (a girl who has not reached puberty yet), would you simply believe them?

I've had that discussion--and I do absolutely believe them. You're taking, at face value, the rantings of anti-Islamic literature, without being willing to listen to those who are actually practitioners.

It's kind of offensive to when you maintain that you know the faith's intentions better than its adherents do.

Reading the words of salat (literally) seems fairly innocent to me.

Sure it is. But that's not what you're doing. You're interpreting the words and then telling adherents what they really believe. That's not so innocent.

I really don't wish to be harsh about this, but I don't know of another way to put this across. Do with this what you will.

I don't think you're being harsh.

Ah. Good.