Muslims praying in a relief society room with images of Christ covered

[ceeboo]

Can I test that with you? If a Muslim told you that they didn't believe that the Quran (Allah's word) teaches that a Muslim can marry and have intercourse with a young girl (a girl who has not reached puberty yet), would you simply believe them?

I've had that discussion--and I do absolutely believe them. You're taking, at face value, the rantings of anti-Islamic literature, without being willing to listen to those who are actually practitioners.

You absolutely believe them? 'Rantings of anti-Islamic literature?

How about the Quran? Is the Quran anti-Islamic literature? How about the Hadiths? Also anti-Islamic literature?

Let's take a look at sura (verse) 65:4 in the Quran from an article below:

Article source = http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2010/04 ... 4.html?m=1
Don’t forget to add the link for large text blocks c/p from elsewhere - thanks!
-c-
Western Muslims are typically quite embarrassed by the fact that Muhammad had sex with a nine-year-old girl, and Muslim apologists are doing everything in their power to rewrite history in order to rescue their prophet from criticism. But are they willing to rewrite the Qur'an as well?

According to Surah 2:228, if a Muslim man wants to divorce his wife, he should wait until she has gone through three monthly cycles (i.e. three periods). But the question later arose: What are men who want a divorce supposed to do when their wives, for whatever reason, do not have monthly cycles? The Qur'an answers this question in Surah 65:4, where it gives divorce rules for (1) women who do not have monthly cycles because they are too old, (2) girls who do not have monthly cycles because they are too young, and (3) women and girls who do not have monthly cycles because they are pregnant. The verse declares that, if Muslim men want to divorce girls who haven't yet reached puberty, they must wait three months (after having sex with them).

Here are some translations of Surah 65:4.

Qur'an 65:4 (Shakir)--And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

Qur'an 65:4 (Arberry)--As for your women who have despaired of further menstruating, if you are in doubt, their period shall be three months; and those who have not menstruated as yet. And those who are with child, their term is when they bring forth their burden. Whoso fears God, God will appoint for him, of His command, easiness.

Qur'an 65:4 (Yusuf Ali)--Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

Qur'an 65:4 (Hilali-Khan)--And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death] . And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him.

Qur'an 65:4 (Sher Ali)--And if you are in doubt as to the prescribed period for such of your women as have despaired of monthly courses, then know that the prescribed period for them is three months, and also for such as do not have their monthly courses yet. And as for those who are with child, their period shall be until they are delivered of their burden. And whoso fears ALLAH, HE will provide facilities for him in his affair.

Qur'an 65:4 (Rodwell)--As to such of your wives as have no hope of the recurrence of their times, if ye have doubts in regard to them, then reckon three months, and let the same be the term of those who have not yet had them. And as to those who are with child, their period shall be until they are delivered of their burden. God will make His command easy to him who feareth Him.

Here are three classic Muslim commentaries on 65:4.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Qur’an 65:4)—Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause.

Tafsir al-Jalalayn (on Qur’an 65:4)—And [as for] those of your women who (read allà'ï or allà'i in both instances) no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed [waiting] period shall be three months, and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months.

Tafsir Ibn Abbas (on Qur’an 65:4)—(And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: "O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?" (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months.

For Muslims who want to say that this verse could refer to divorcing prepubescent girls whose husbands haven't had sex with them, the Qur'an refutes this claim. Surah 33:49 says that there is no waiting period if a man has not had sex with his bride.

Qur'an 33:49--O ye who believe! When ye marry believing women, and then divorce them before ye have touched them, no period of 'Iddat have ye to count in respect of them: so give them a present. And set them free in a handsome manner.

Hence, the Qur'an says that there is no waiting period if a man hasn't had sex with his bride, and the Qur'an prescribes a waiting period for men who want to divorce their prepubescent child-brides. This presupposes that the men have had sex with them, which means that the Qur'an allows sex with prepubescent girls. This shouldn't be surprising, since Muhammad himself had sex with a girl who hadn't reached puberty.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seems crystal clear to me that the idda (waiting period before divorce) includes girls who have not yet reached puberty.



Also - let's consider the following video about this from David Wood.

"Does the Quran allows Marriage and Sexual Intercourse with Prepubescent Girls? David Wood" (about 9 minutes) - Pay attention around the 45 second mark where a devout Muslim suggests that Muslims need to stop lying for the sake of Islam and that it's clear that Aisha was 9 when Mohammed (in his mid 50's) had sex with her.

https://youtu.be/dSfmyFdqptM?si=Z_j3_jjXjGjh_6PU

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How about a Muslim apologist's take? "Muslim Preacher Says the Quran Allows Pedophilia"

https://youtu.be/4qEzQKCDjzw?si=SU7owgSYeh93WqWh

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Morley]

I've had that discussion--and I do absolutely believe them. You're taking, at face value, the rantings of anti-Islamic literature, without being willing to listen to those who are actually practitioners.

You absolutely believe them? 'Rantings of anti-Islamic literature?

How about the Quran? Is the Quran anti-Islamic literature? How about the Hadiths? Also anti-Islamic literature?

Let's take a look at sura (verse) 65:4 in the Quran from an article below:

Western Muslims are typically quite embarrassed by the fact that Muhammad had sex with a nine-year-old girl, and Muslim apologists are doing everything in their power to rewrite history in order to rescue their prophet from criticism. But are they willing to rewrite the Qur'an as well?

According to Surah 2:228, if a Muslim man wants to divorce his wife, he should wait until she has gone through three monthly cycles (i.e. three periods). But the question later arose: What are men who want a divorce supposed to do when their wives, for whatever reason, do not have monthly cycles? The Qur'an answers this question in Surah 65:4, where it gives divorce rules for (1) women who do not have monthly cycles because they are too old, (2) girls who do not have monthly cycles because they are too young, and (3) women and girls who do not have monthly cycles because they are pregnant. The verse declares that, if Muslim men want to divorce girls who haven't yet reached puberty, they must wait three months (after having sex with them).

Here are some translations of Surah 65:4.

Qur'an 65:4 (Shakir)--And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

Qur'an 65:4 (Arberry)--As for your women who have despaired of further menstruating, if you are in doubt, their period shall be three months; and those who have not menstruated as yet. And those who are with child, their term is when they bring forth their burden. Whoso fears God, God will appoint for him, of His command, easiness.

Qur'an 65:4 (Yusuf Ali)--Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

Qur'an 65:4 (Hilali-Khan)--And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death] . And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him.

Qur'an 65:4 (Sher Ali)--And if you are in doubt as to the prescribed period for such of your women as have despaired of monthly courses, then know that the prescribed period for them is three months, and also for such as do not have their monthly courses yet. And as for those who are with child, their period shall be until they are delivered of their burden. And whoso fears ALLAH, HE will provide facilities for him in his affair.

Qur'an 65:4 (Rodwell)--As to such of your wives as have no hope of the recurrence of their times, if ye have doubts in regard to them, then reckon three months, and let the same be the term of those who have not yet had them. And as to those who are with child, their period shall be until they are delivered of their burden. God will make His command easy to him who feareth Him.

Here are three classic Muslim commentaries on 65:4.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Qur’an 65:4)—Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause.

Tafsir al-Jalalayn (on Qur’an 65:4)—And [as for] those of your women who (read allà'ï or allà'i in both instances) no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed [waiting] period shall be three months, and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months.

Tafsir Ibn Abbas (on Qur’an 65:4)—(And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: "O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?" (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months.

For Muslims who want to say that this verse could refer to divorcing prepubescent girls whose husbands haven't had sex with them, the Qur'an refutes this claim. Surah 33:49 says that there is no waiting period if a man has not had sex with his bride.

Qur'an 33:49--O ye who believe! When ye marry believing women, and then divorce them before ye have touched them, no period of 'Iddat have ye to count in respect of them: so give them a present. And set them free in a handsome manner.

Hence, the Qur'an says that there is no waiting period if a man hasn't had sex with his bride, and the Qur'an prescribes a waiting period for men who want to divorce their prepubescent child-brides. This presupposes that the men have had sex with them, which means that the Qur'an allows sex with prepubescent girls. This shouldn't be surprising, since Muhammad himself had sex with a girl who hadn't reached puberty.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seems crystal clear to me that the idda (waiting period before divorce) includes girls who have not yet reached puberty.



Also - let's consider the following video about this from David Wood.

"Does the Quran allows Marriage and Sexual Intercourse with Prepubescent Girls? David Wood" (about 9 minutes) - Pay attention around the 45 second mark where a devout Muslim suggests that Muslims need to stop lying for the sake of Islam and that it's clear that Aisha was 9 when Mohammed (in his mid 50's) had sex with her.

https://youtu.be/dSfmyFdqptM?si=Z_j3_jjXjGjh_6PU

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How about a Muslim apologist's take? "Muslim Preacher Says the Quran Allows Pedophilia"

https://youtu.be/4qEzQKCDjzw?si=SU7owgSYeh93WqWh

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can't really justify the "Muslims pray to Muhammad" claim, except by to say that it's your own theory, so you move onto another anti-Islamic trope. This is akin to the anti-Christian claim that Joseph and God were pedophiles because Mary was only twelve and barely out of puberty.

Your 'Muslims pray to Mohammed' claim may have had something to do with this thread because the OP was about Muslims praying--but I'm not seeing the connection to Muslims and underage marriage. Maybe start a new thread?

[ceeboo]

Morley,

Clearly, I did justify the truth that Muslims pray to Mohammed, directly.

Putting aside your suggestion about Mary's age, are you suggesting that Christians/Bible believe/teach that God mounted Mary and had sexual intercourse with her?

Because you said that you believe those who practice a faith, i asked if I could test that. That is the reason I asked you if you would believe a Muslim who said that the Quran did not teach that marriage and sex with a young girl who hasn't reached puberty was cool. You said that you would absolutely believe such a person.

If what I posted was true, are you okay with grown men marrying and having sex with young girls? Nine?

[Doctor Steuss]

Ceeboo, if I were to use the anti-Christian Islamic site, Answering-Christianity, to demonstrate that Christians believe that Jesus castrated himself, would you accept that as a good faithed accurate representation of what Christians truly believe? What if I used the same website to demonstrate (using the "plain language" of Christian scripture") that Christians believe that God sent Jesus to be Christianity's lying spirit? Or that I justified the truth that Christians believe incest is good, using the Bible directly, using the same website?

It'd make more sense to seek out adherents to Christianity to find out how they interpret their scripture, and the writings of fellow Christians, would it not?

[drumdude]

DCP said this in 2017:

Evaluations of Muhammad have varied wildly. Skeptical Western writers for years regarded him as a fraud. (Indeed, many liked to link him with Joseph Smith in that regard. To associate the two was to damn both.)[1] The great fourteenth-century Christian poet Dante placed him in one of the deepest reaches of Hell.[2] For Muslims, on the other hand, he is the incomparable Messenger of God, “the seal of the prophets.” His place in Islamic piety is astonishingly high, although Muslims strictly avoid worship of him and are offended at any suggestion that they pay him divine honors.[3] (This is similar to what Latter-day Saints feel when it is claimed that they worship Joseph Smith.)

I learned this lesson on my mission in Switzerland. During my time there, at least, it was rather rare for us to actually be invited into someone’s apartment while tracting. So my companion and I were delighted one evening when a Pakistani banker came to the door and said, “Mormons! I have always wanted to know something of your religion. Please come in!” I well recall thinking to myself what a lucky fellow this guy was, to have chanced upon perhaps the most knowledgeable missionary in Switzerland on the subject of Islam. He must have been living right. I was just the person to teach him. What actually happened was a swift illustration of the folly of relying upon one’s own wisdom in attempting to teach the gospel. (It was also a sharp reminder that I knew very little about Islam, actually. I had not yet begun my real study of the subject. And today I am less confident than I was then about how I would approach Muslims.) Within about two minutes of our entrance into the man’s apartment, we were politely but firmly asked to leave. The reason? In a clear instance of lack of inspiration, I had chosen as my start­ing gambit, my point of entry, something that I thought would fur­nish common ground upon which we could talk. I brought up the idea of Joseph Smith, a postbiblical prophet. The Pakistani banker looked unexpectedly glum. “You mean,” he asked, “a prophet after Muhammad?” “Yes!” I replied, beaming with enthusiasm. A short pause. “I’m sorry,” he responded. “I would love to talk with you more, but I cannot allow discussion of a prophet after Muhammad to be conducted in my apartment. Please do not be offended.” And out we went.

I learned from this that it is going to be a difficult matter to speak with Muslims about the gospel without offending them and without contradicting some of their deepest beliefs. I also learned that our task of someday taking the gospel to the Muslims—and we cannot conceal that we desire to do so, although we are careful to observe the law and although we try carefully to respect the reli­gious sensitivities of others—will be greatly eased to the extent we can say good things about Muhammad, the founder of Islam.


[3] Annemarie Schimmel’s book, And Muhammad Is His Messenger: The Veneration of the Prophet in Islamic Piety (Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press, 1985), gives a good overview of this subject for those who might be interested. For legends about Muhammad’s conception and birth, see Daniel C. Peterson, “A Prophet Emerging: Fetal Narratives in Islamic Literature,” in Vanessa R. Sasson and Jane Marie Law, eds., Imagining the Fetus: The Unborn in Myth, Religion, and Culture (Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press, 2009)

[Morley]

Morley,

Clearly, I did justify the truth that Muslims pray to Mohammed, directly.

Ha! You clearly demonstrated that you think they do. Show me a Muslim cleric who agrees with you.

Putting aside your suggestion about Mary's age, are you suggesting that Christians/Bible believe/teach that God mounted Mary and had sexual intercourse with her?

Nope. I've already said that I generally take folks at their word about what they say they believe.

Because you said that you believe those who practice a faith, i asked if I could test that. That is the reason I asked you if you would believe a Muslim who said that the Quran did not teach that marriage and sex with a young girl who hasn't reached puberty was cool. You said that you would absolutely believe such a person.

Yes, I would believe a Muslim who said that they believe that having sex with young girls is not what the Quran teaches. I would also believe you, if you said that you believe that the God of the Old Testament is not endorsing rape--even though I might be able find passages that seem to suggest as much.

If what I posted was true, are you okay with grown men marrying and having sex with young girls? Nine?

Are you daft?



edit: Please, if you would, move your discussion of theocratic endorsement of rape and/or underage sex to another thread. It doesn't belong here, in a thread about Muslim prayer in Mormon meeting houses.

[Morley]

DCP said this in 2017:

Evaluations of Muhammad have varied wildly. Skeptical Western writers for years regarded him as a fraud. (Indeed, many liked to link him with Joseph Smith in that regard. To associate the two was to damn both.)[1] The great fourteenth-century Christian poet Dante placed him in one of the deepest reaches of Hell.[2] For Muslims, on the other hand, he is the incomparable Messenger of God, “the seal of the prophets.” His place in Islamic piety is astonishingly high, although Muslims strictly avoid worship of him and are offended at any suggestion that they pay him divine honors.[3] (This is similar to what Latter-day Saints feel when it is claimed that they worship Joseph Smith.)

bold is mine


Unfortunately, I think that overtly offending other people is sometimes the goal.

[ceeboo]

Yes, I would believe a Muslim who said that they believe that having sex with young girls is not what the Quran teaches.

Does the Quran play any role in determining what you believe about what the Quran teaches?

edit: Please, if you would, move your discussion of theocratic endorsement of rape and/or underage sex to another thread. It doesn't belong here, in a thread about Muslim prayer in Mormon meeting houses.

If a mod or the author of the OP would like my posts removed from the thread, I am fine with that.

[Morley]

Yes, I would believe a Muslim who said that they believe that having sex with young girls is not what the Quran teaches.

Does the Quran play any role in determining what you believe about what the Quran teaches?

I find the Quran pretty opaque. I've read it all the way through only once--and I needed a commentary to help me make sense of it even then. My impression was that, like the Bible, one could walk away believing that the Quran is saying almost anything you want to believe it's saying. When a Muslim says that they believe the Quran is saying such-and-such, should I think that they are lying to me?

When you tell me that the New Testament says that we can only be saved through Jesus, of course I'm going to believe that you think that. I may not believe it myself. I may not even agree that The New Testament says that. But I'm certainly going to grant that you're not lying to me about what you believe or in how you approach your own holy scripture.



edit: I should note that I read Arberry's English translation. I don't remember the commentary I used. There are those who would say that you haven't really read the Quran unless you've read it in Arabic. There is no chance I'll learn Arabic and do that.

[Doctor Steuss]

edit: I should note that I read Arberry's English translation. I don't remember the commentary I used. There are those who would say that you haven't really read the Quran unless you've read it in Arabic. There is no chance I'll learn Arabic and do that.

Maybe I'll give it another go, using a commentary. I've tried reading it a couple of times throughout my life, and I don't think I've ever made it past maybe the 60% mark. For me, it's been like reading the Talmud... if it were written in English, translated to Greek, then translated into Hebrew, then translated into Arabic, and then translated back into English... all by people who weren't native speakers of any of those languages.

Kind of like reading a poetic Old Testament, if I had no idea what poetry is.