Muslims praying in a relief society room with images of Christ covered

[Marcus]

Ceeboo, stepping back from this for a moment, I'll ask, why does this matter to you? Why are you fixated on expressing your opinion on the manner and form of Muslim prayer? Why would you even care about how Muslims pray or what they believe? You have not been, nor will you ever be, a Muslim. You're not interested in the religion or culture enough to really investigate either. I don't understand why this is such a concern for you.

...I am trying to challenge people who follow Muhammed/Quran - I am trying to have people evaluate what is found in the Quran - I am trying to challenge people to evaluate the character/morals of Muhammed - I am trying to challenge people to weigh Muhammed/Quran against Jesus/collection of 66 books we call the Bible....

I thought this was a great question for Morley to ask you, and your response, as summed up in the paragraph I excerpted, was pretty clear.

But, you later asked this question...

...Lastly, I am a bit curious/perplexed over this seeming concern over offending Muslims. Given the hundreds (perhaps thousands) of times that I have read highly negative/offensive things on this board about Christians and/or the Bible that have had extremely little push back (other than from Christians). Have you found any of this offensive as well? If so, have you posted your challenge/protest?

It seems your reason was not so much challenging beliefs about prayer and Muhammad as it was setting up an example where you tried to catch readers here in what you see as a discrepancy. Was that your intent all along?

[drumdude]

I’m not particularly worried about offending Muslims. I think there’s a lot to criticize Islam for, where things go wrong in my opinion is when the critics (like a lot of evangelicals) set up straw men and knock them down in an attempt to prop up their own pet religious beliefs.

I'm not implying anything by the coming question - just seeking clarity - do you think I am setting up straw men and knocking then down to prop up my own pet religious beliefs?

As this board is mostly made of atheists, a lot of us believe that Islam and Christianity are basically equally wrong. Just in their own unique ways

Understood.

But it still seems to me that (generally speaking - not speaking to you directly) Muslim/Muhammed/Quran is treated differently than Christian/Jesus/Bible on the board. Perhaps this is because the former is rarely discussed on the board? Or, perhaps I am just wrong about how things seem to me? I dunno, just curious/perplexed.

I don’t think you are, but the video you linked definitely strikes me as that sort of thing. He was trying to get the Muslim guest in a “gotcha.”

I don’t know what’s in everyone’s mind but if I were to hazard a guess, it’s because all of the former Mormons here were essentially also former Christians. And during the deconstruction of Mormonism, it’s impossible to not also deconstruct Christianity. So we are all very familiar with the criticism of Christianity. But we aren’t as familiar with Islam.

During the deconstruction process, we see a lot of Christian apologetics. Many of them are really bad arguments. So most of the exposure to Islam we have is watching really bad evangelical arguments with atheists and Muslims.

But that’s only my experience and may not apply at all to others here.

[ceeboo]

I'm not implying anything by the coming question - just seeking clarity - do you think I am setting up straw men and knocking then down to prop up my own pet religious beliefs?


Understood.

But it still seems to me that (generally speaking - not speaking to you directly) Muslim/Muhammed/Quran is treated differently than Christian/Jesus/Bible on the board. Perhaps this is because the former is rarely discussed on the board? Or, perhaps I am just wrong about how things seem to me? I dunno, just curious/perplexed.

the video you linked definitely strikes me as that sort of thing. He was trying to get the Muslim guest in a “gotcha.”

Yeah - almost certainly the case. Most (many) of these YouTube videos are click bait seeking views = $

I don’t know what’s in everyone’s mind but if I were to hazard a guess, it’s because all of the former Mormons here were essentially also former Christians. And during the deconstruction of Mormonism, it’s impossible to not also deconstruct Christianity. So we are all very familiar with the criticism of Christianity. But we aren’t as familiar with Islam.

Perhaps (thanks for thoughts)

During the deconstruction process, we see a lot of Christian apologetics. Many of them are really bad arguments.

Yeah, I agree.

[Jersey Girl]

During the deconstruction process, we see a lot of Christian apologetics. Many of them are really bad arguments. So most of the exposure to Islam we have is watching really bad evangelical arguments with atheists and Muslims.

But that’s only my experience and may not apply at all to others here.

It applies to me personally! Years ago when I began investigating Mormonism, I went to my church library and checked out the following:

The Godmakers
The Mormon Puzzle
Mormonism, Mama,and Me

(I may have the title wrong on that last one but close enough)

As I traveled further into my investigation I realized that the purpose of those first two was to incite. Well it's been a long journey and I've learned from it.

[Bret Ripley]

During the deconstruction process, we see a lot of Christian apologetics. Many of them are really bad arguments. So most of the exposure to Islam we have is watching really bad evangelical arguments with atheists and Muslims.

But that’s only my experience and may not apply at all to others here.

It applies to me personally! Years ago when I began investigating Mormonism, I went to my church library and checked out the following:

The Godmakers
The Mormon Puzzle
Mormonism, Mama,and Me

(I may have the title wrong on that last one but close enough)

As I traveled further into my investigation I realized that the purpose of those first two was to incite. Well it's been a long journey and I've learned from it.

I grew up in a largish Pentacostal church, and when I was in my mid 20s I worked there first as a janitor and later in the accounting office. There was a reader-board out front that advertised upcoming events, and I remember one time it advertised an upcoming screening of 'The Godmakers.'

Some local LDS folks contacted the pastoral staff and arranged to watch and discuss the film with them prior to the public showing. Well, I never learned any details of that meeting, but afterwards the sign advertising 'The Godmakers' was removed and the film was not shown.

I didn't know anything about Mormonism or 'The Godmakers' at the time, but looking back on things now the decision to yank the film from the schedule is one of the fond memories I have of that church. I also have some admiration for the LDS folks who were brave enough to initiate the meeting and sit down to watch and discuss 'The Godmakers' with the pastors.

[Jersey Girl]

It applies to me personally! Years ago when I began investigating Mormonism, I went to my church library and checked out the following:

The Godmakers
The Mormon Puzzle
Mormonism, Mama,and Me

(I may have the title wrong on that last one but close enough)

As I traveled further into my investigation I realized that the purpose of those first two was to incite. Well it's been a long journey and I've learned from it.

I grew up in a largish Pentacostal church, and when I was in my mid 20s I worked there first as a janitor and later in the accounting office. There was a reader-board out front that advertised upcoming events, and I remember one time it advertised an upcoming screening of 'The Godmakers.'

Some local LDS folks contacted the pastoral staff and arranged to watch and discuss the film with them prior to the public showing. Well, I never learned any details of that meeting, but afterwards the sign advertising 'The Godmakers' was removed and the film was not shown.

I didn't know anything about Mormonism or 'The Godmakers' at the time, but looking back on things now the decision to yank the film from the schedule is one of the fond memories I have of that church. I also have some admiration for the LDS folks who were brave enough to initiate the meeting and sit down to watch and discuss 'The Godmakers' with the pastors.

I think it was after those books that I ended up on RFM and started really getting my education about Mormonism. Joined my first board and learned more, and so on and so forth. I had many deep and sincere conversations with LDS including posters from RFM with whom I corresponded. MDB is my third LDS related board. Once I got my feet wet back in the day and had a good handle on the religion, I was surprised at the number of questioning and ex-LDS who contacted me where we engaged in lengthy heartfelt conversations about their concerns. I think folks knew I was trustworthy and more than that, I had no reason to try to hurt them.

Thanks for your reply here Bret! What brought me into the LDS dialogue was my close friendship with an LDS woman and her family. Too many details that led up to that for me to tell right now but I have shared my story many times here on the board.

All good learning comes from a relationship. Write that down.

ETA: Here's a brief version of my story:viewtopic.php?f=4&t=158103&p=2847075&hi ... r#p2847075 There's a far more detailed one somewhere on this board but I'm not hunting it down. Probably archived.

[msnobody]

I grew up in a largish Pentacostal church, and when I was in my mid 20s I worked there first as a janitor and later in the accounting office. There was a reader-board out front that advertised upcoming events, and I remember one time it advertised an upcoming screening of 'The Godmakers.'

Some local LDS folks contacted the pastoral staff and arranged to watch and discuss the film with them prior to the public showing. Well, I never learned any details of that meeting, but afterwards the sign advertising 'The Godmakers' was removed and the film was not shown.

I didn't know anything about Mormonism or 'The Godmakers' at the time, but looking back on things now the decision to yank the film from the schedule is one of the fond memories I have of that church. I also have some admiration for the LDS folks who were brave enough to initiate the meeting and sit down to watch and discuss 'The Godmakers' with the pastors.

I think it was after those books that I ended up on RFM and started really getting my education about Mormonism. Joined my first board and learned more, and so on and so forth. I had many deep and sincere conversations with LDS including posters from RFM with whom I corresponded. MDB is my third LDS related board. Once I got my feet wet back in the day and had a good handle on the religion, I was surprised at the number of questioning and ex-LDS who contacted me where we engaged in lengthy heartfelt conversations about their concerns. I think folks knew I was trustworthy and more than that, I had no reason to try to hurt them.

Thanks for your reply here Bret! What brought me into the LDS dialogue was my close friendship with an LDS woman and her family. Too many details that led up to that for me to tell right now but I have shared my story many times here on the board.

All good learning comes from a relationship. Write that down.

RFM— are you referring to exMormon.org?

[Jersey Girl]

I think it was after those books that I ended up on RFM and started really getting my education about Mormonism. Joined my first board and learned more, and so on and so forth. I had many deep and sincere conversations with LDS including posters from RFM with whom I corresponded. MDB is my third LDS related board. Once I got my feet wet back in the day and had a good handle on the religion, I was surprised at the number of questioning and ex-LDS who contacted me where we engaged in lengthy heartfelt conversations about their concerns. I think folks knew I was trustworthy and more than that, I had no reason to try to hurt them.

Thanks for your reply here Bret! What brought me into the LDS dialogue was my close friendship with an LDS woman and her family. Too many details that led up to that for me to tell right now but I have shared my story many times here on the board.

All good learning comes from a relationship. Write that down.

RFM— are you referring to exMormon.org?

Recovery from Mormonism, yes.

[Jersey Girl]

I keep trying to formulate a position on the OP. I dislike that the images of Christ were covered but then I consider this. Some of the churches where I live now open their doors to other congregations who have no building or meeting place yet or a building that's been damaged.

So...I do like the idea of community reaching out across the aisle, as it were, to generously help those of a different faith.

Can anyone explain to me why LDS chose to cover the images of Christ or did the Muslims do that? Did I miss that part?

Anyway, all things considered...I think I come down on the side that it's okay for LDS to open their doors to Muslims. Probably need more time to think about the wall art being covered.

msnobody if you are reading here, talk this out with me if you're willing or can even spare the time. Like right in front of everyone and all.

[Morley]

An individual communication with God is an entirely different thing than millions of people praying "Peace be unto you, O prophet" during salat.

Actually, it's not.

Lastly, I am a bit curious/perplexed over this seeming concern over offending Muslims. Given the hundreds (perhaps thousands) of times that I have read highly negative/offensive things on this board about Christians and/or the Bible that have had extremely little push back (other than from Christians). Have you found any of this offensive as well? If so, have you posted your challenge/protest?

Ceeboo, I'm not at all concerned with offending Muslims. When I say that this is an assertion is offensive to Muslims, I don't mean 'offensive' in the sense of making folks feel defensive or causing hurt feelings. I mean 'offensive' in that it's as if you just walked into a posh dinner party smeared head to toe in cow dung. The charge runs counter to the core of the religion. Muslims will turn their backs and dismiss you out of hand, the same way you'd shake your head, laugh disgustedly, and then turn away from someone who shouted that Christians worship a zombie who rose from the dead. It's not a serious critique.

You say you value truth, and that you consider truth to be objective. In spite of that, you feel free to misrepresent the stated beliefs of Muslims. You do so by parsing the words of a prayer and then telling Muslims that they're not saying what they think that they are saying.

Issues like whether or not Islam's teachings are good for the world or whether or not it preaches the Word of God are things that are subject to being debated. I could give you a list that would run into pages. However, whether or not Muslims embrace a doctrinal practice of praying to Muhammed is just saying shite to get a rise out of people. Then when they sigh and turn away, you erroneously think that you've scored a point. You haven't: They disengage because what you've said is just plain stupid.

Though many of the folks here are critical to various aspects of Mormonism, if you came here seriously suggesting that Mormons worship Joseph Smith, you'd get the same degree of pushback that you're getting on this. If you came here seriously claiming that the reason Jesus rose from the dead was that he was a reanimated golem or that Christians engage in ritualistic cannibalism every time they take the Eucharist, you'd get the same kind of pushback.

If you want to critique either Islam or the LDS Church, the field is rich with legitimate issues to be harvested that are much more credible than this ridiculous assertion. As to islam, you could talk about Islam as an flimsy excuse for Arab expansion, conquest, and colonialism. You could bring up the debasement and objectification of women in Islam. You could speak to the contradictions in The Quran and of the dubious grounding of much of the Hadith. Any of these would be much more credible.

Have you read any of the Richard Carrier threads here? In those, atheists and non-Christians strongly rejected the notion that Jesus was not a historical figure, because the idea that he didn't exist is patently silly. And Carrier has tons more credibility than some random anti-Islam website.