DCP, living in the past.

[Markk]

The lasted in case he decides to stop the thread.

Markk:"I would also argue that the brethren now understand that they can't win and sadly can't repent"

Dan: You're entirely welcome to attempt such an argument, but you'll need logic and evidence to make it. I'm not optimistic about your prospects.

Markk: Well, I am not really sure where to start. The obvious one is the PH ban or the cryptic use or misuse of tithing funds while tooling false managers into forging documents.

IYO, why did the church institute the ban? IYO, why did the church allow employees, most likely who were faithful members, knowingly forge Government issue documents? I would think apologizes are in order for these, showing repentance.

_____

Markk: "The appearance is they shut your (for lack of a better term, mopology) past approach down."

Dan: They didn't.

Markk: Then who did? You even wrote in the quote about in the "World Table" Elder Ballard asked for aggressive apologetic. If the order to shut it down did not come from the top, where did it come from and by whom?

_____

Markk:"The very arguments that EV's championed, in many cases, have been conceded and accepted. Many arguments that folks like yourself, "scholars," said were false are now accepted in varying degrees as true, even if not discussed and taught in the chapel and classes. Even when many members have no idea of these confessions. Arguments that led to excommunications of some, that again have been conceded now as true."

Dan: Do you also believe that the 2020 presidential election was a landslide victory for Donald Trump?

Markk: LOL...If one were to go to the Essays, the Joseph Smith Papers, Saints, and then compare those revealed truth to what was discussed 25-30 years ago, even on the old forums...what would we find?

Do you thing Fawn Brodie or Juanita Brooks would be ex'd today for writing what they did about Joseph and the MMM respectively? Heck they won't even ex RFM or Kerry (as far as I know). Do you think Hauglid or Bokovoy would be ex'd 25 years ago? Has Vogel been ex'd?

Point being Dan, The internet and John Dehlin changed everything. Whether you admit it of not it forced the GA to concede truths they could no longer keep away for saints that want to know the truth.

______

Markk:"Dan, why do you think that there are many ex-members, or PIMO members, that have had exchanges with you, and frankly don't like you? This is a honest question."

Dan: And it's an easy one to answer: I'm a very bad and unpleasant person, and nobody has liked me since I was a child.

Markk: Pompous ,conceded, and self-victimization are maybe better terms in regard to perception. But one huge reason is that people hurt because of the lies of the church, in regard to what we were taught, and your caviler twisting this hurt into it being their/our faults, is in my opinion the largest reason.

______

Markk:"Do you regret any of your attacks and or denials, against some of these folks for "debating" truths that are now conceded as truths you once denied? What would you say to these folks that were genuinely looking for truths, that you bullied and belittled by your (mopology) approach? Would you consider saying "I'm sorry" and admit you were wrong?"

Dan: No. And I don't grant your assumptions, either.

Markk: Fair enough Dan.

[Markk]

Some devastating posts, Markk. I’m struck by the fundamental hypocrisy of his response to you: on the one hand, he is cracking self-deprecating jokes about how “unlikable” he is, but in the other, he’s denying your very reasonable assertion that people dislike him because of the way he has treated them. I can’t help but wonder: what does he imagine the reason is why people dislike him so much? I’m genuinely curious about this.

On a side note: how nice that he’s had time to spend with his precious granddaughter. I wonder though: how would he feel if his granddaughter was “stalked” by a Louis Midgley-esque person? Let DCP look into his young granddaughter’s face and understand that his Good Pal Lou did something to someone who once was his granddaughter’s age.

I mean, what does he think or say to this? If he has integrity, then he would have to admit this his own innocent granddaughter would deserve the “smear treatment” if she dared say anything negative about the Church. Either that, or he needs to admit how misguided he has been.

??? What did Lou do? I am ignorant of that one?

[huckelberry]

Dan’s characterization aside, I think he’s absolutely right about evangelical apologetics. There aren’t any interesting new arguments about Mormonism coming from them.

But Evangelical James White has been calling out DCP’s crew embracing biblical criticism for years. He said it was a double edged sword to use secular biblical criticism to justify parts of the argument for Mormonism, because that same biblical criticism is devastating to Christianity as a whole.

You can see this best with Robert Boylan and Travis Anderson. They will use tiny little parts of secular criticism when it suits them but completely ignore the larger context that undermines Christianity and Mormonism.

See Bart Ehrman for a basic introduction to the kinds of criticism of the historical Jesus that undermine both Christianity and Mormonism.

drumdude, I find my self wishing to find and angle actual discussion in this thread so will express reservation about your Ehrman observation. I think his study certainly undermines the dogmatism of inerrancy but I hadn't noticed it undermining Christianity. I think some lame apologetic energy and verbiage gets expended trying to patch pictures of inerrancy together

What do you mean by the larger context that undermines Christianity and Mormonism?

[drumdude]

Dan’s characterization aside, I think he’s absolutely right about evangelical apologetics. There aren’t any interesting new arguments about Mormonism coming from them.

But Evangelical James White has been calling out DCP’s crew embracing biblical criticism for years. He said it was a double edged sword to use secular biblical criticism to justify parts of the argument for Mormonism, because that same biblical criticism is devastating to Christianity as a whole.

You can see this best with Robert Boylan and Travis Anderson. They will use tiny little parts of secular criticism when it suits them but completely ignore the larger context that undermines Christianity and Mormonism.

See Bart Ehrman for a basic introduction to the kinds of criticism of the historical Jesus that undermine both Christianity and Mormonism.

drumdude, I find my self wishing to find and angle actual discussion in this thread so will express reservation about your Ehrman observation. I think his study certainly undermines the dogmatism of inerrancy but I hadn't noticed it undermining Christianity. I think some lame apologetic energy and verbiage gets expended trying to patch pictures of inerrancy together

What do you mean by the larger context that undermines Christianity and Mormonism?

Through textural criticism, an argument can be made that Jesus was just a man and only after he died did the religion form around him. Later writers created a narrative that he was the son of God, and then eventually God himself.

The evidence points to Jesus simply being an apocalyptic Jewish preacher and nothing more. Later core theological embellishments are fictional and not historically accurate.

[ceeboo]

The evidence points to Jesus simply being an apocalyptic Jewish preacher and nothing more. Later core theological embellishments are fictional and not historically accurate.

[Jesse Pinkman]

The evidence points to Jesus simply being an apocalyptic Jewish preacher and nothing more. Later core theological embellishments are fictional and not historically accurate.

OK, this is off topic, but I love the dog in your .gif

[Jesse Pinkman]

Some devastating posts, Markk. I’m struck by the fundamental hypocrisy of his response to you: on the one hand, he is cracking self-deprecating jokes about how “unlikable” he is, but in the other, he’s denying your very reasonable assertion that people dislike him because of the way he has treated them. I can’t help but wonder: what does he imagine the reason is why people dislike him so much? I’m genuinely curious about this.

On a side note: how nice that he’s had time to spend with his precious granddaughter. I wonder though: how would he feel if his granddaughter was “stalked” by a Louis Midgley-esque person? Let DCP look into his young granddaughter’s face and understand that his Good Pal Lou did something to someone who once was his granddaughter’s age.

I mean, what does he think or say to this? If he has integrity, then he would have to admit this his own innocent granddaughter would deserve the “smear treatment” if she dared say anything negative about the Church. Either that, or he needs to admit how misguided he has been.

??? What did Lou do? I am ignorant of that one?

So am I. What exactly happened?

[Kishkumen]

Lou couldn’t leave a certain liberal New Zealand feminist Mormon alone.

[drumdude]

Lou couldn’t leave a certain liberal New Zealand feminist Mormon alone.

The details are too disgusting to post. Lou Midgley is a real piece of work.

[drumdude]

The evidence points to Jesus simply being an apocalyptic Jewish preacher and nothing more. Later core theological embellishments are fictional and not historically accurate.

His lectures are available here, and also scattered around YouTube:

https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses ... Jesus.html

Bart Ehrman is widely regarded as the preeminent New Testament scholar, even amongst believing Christians.