DCP, living in the past.

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Doctor Scratch
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Do you really imagine that the general public knows or cares even slightly about that non-issue?
I'm pretty certain that people who follow LDS apologetics would care *quite* a bit about the fact that the Church's main apologist was caught in a brazen and spectacular lie concerning a communication from the Office of the First Presidency.
And it was never of central importance. Not to me and not to our position.
Then why the need for the deception? Their "position" was that the Book of Mormon took place in Latin America. It would seem that the goal was to ensure that (at least) the readership of the FARMS Review understood that the Brethren supported the Mopologetic position on the matter. It *shouldn't* have been important, but then Mopologetists have a way of getting involved in petty things, don't they?
And I would have to be a massively stupid fool, as a member of the Church and a professor at the Church’s flagship university, to have brazenly and publicly lied about a communication from the Office of the First Presidency. Moreover, as a believing Latter-day Saint who accepts the First Presidency as prophets, seers, and revelatory, I would never, ever, knowingly seek to misrepresent their position. Never.
Okay, so I guess we're going with inadvertent delusion? He and Hamblin inarguably misrepresented that communication: that is not up for debate. They said publicly, in print, that the text was from a "second letter" from F. Michael Watson, and that is totally, inarguably wrong. It is 100% false: "flatly false," as Prof. P. is fond of saying. He can claim that this wasn't a "lie," to which I say: Okay, then what was it? An "accident"? A "mistake"? Could it be that Hamblin was the lone liar here, and that he deceived his pal DCP, telling him that it was a letter from Watson when it actually wasn't? (Problem: DCP claimed in writing that he had actually "seen" the letter!) Again: I'm willing to drop the "lying" accusation if he were to just admit that he was wrong, made a mistake, was the victim of Hamblin's lying, or whatever else. But at some point he's going to need to own the fact that the journal he was in charge of editing published something that was a brazen misrepresentation of a communication from the Office of the First Presidency. That falsehood, as far as I know, is still sitting there in the pages of that old issue of the FARMS Review.

And I'll add that it's completely obvious why he keeps coming back to this "never of central importance" and "never...knowlingly misrepresent their position" business: it's meant to minimize the fundamentally deceptive nature of what he and Hamblin did. The idea is: it "doesn't matter" if they lied about Watson having sent the letter, because, hey, the Church's "actual" position is that it doesn't have a position! The problem with this is that *some* loyal Latter-day Saint gets thrown under the bus in this scenario no matter what. Implicitly, DCP is saying that F. Michael Watson is/was an "idiot" who rather stupidly was peddling false doctrine.
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

Post by Jesse Pinkman »

Markk wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2024 3:46 am
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2024 3:09 am
Markk,

It sounds like you need me to call the missionaries and have them come over to give you a blessing. The only question is whether you have enough faith to not be healed?
Nah, I got a neti pot. But thanks.

But, some Missionaries came by last Sunday after 9:00 PM with some youth singing Christmas Carols. I was in my PJ's watching the final of Yellowstone. I :mrgreen: am always really friendly and good with these kids but for what ever reason I lost it on them, and told them "do you what time it is, and do you have any idea what the church teaches?" I told them to look at the Gospel Topic Essays and for what ever reason, I don't know why, I told them to look up Emily Partridge and her Temple lot testimony, and shut the door. Then I felt like a huge a-hole and went back out and told them my frustrations was not directed at them, but at the brethren sending you out not knowing the truths. This all happened in about two minutes. I have felt like a d--k all week.
Hey, they interrupted Yellowstone. How dare they? Don’t feel bad.

Great finale! We watched it again last night. :D :mrgreen:
"Yo 148, 3-to-the-3-to-the-6-to-the-9. Representin' the ABQ. What up, biatch? Leave it at the tone!" ;)
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Doctor Scratch
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2024 6:48 pm
drumdude wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2024 6:32 pm
Just a side note to Dan: Dan, you’ve mentioned your memory on this 2nd Watson Letter issue has been fuzzy several times. Fortunately Mormonism Live has laid out the history pretty clearly here:

https://www.youtube.com/live/y4tYNWFkO6o
That video has over 13,000 views (and counting), all but guaranteeing the 2nd Watson Letter fiasco will remain fresh in the minds of thousands for decades to come.
Indeed! And look at this: more threats of banning/censorship if anyone dares to bring it up:
The Afore wrote:Incidentally, don't post here any more about the so-called "Second Watson Letter." You may be willing to dance to the Malevolent Stalker's tune, but I'm not. He wants to keep his slanderous accusation alive, and he's free to try. But I won't allow him the use of my own blog to do it.
The incident has a life of its own, and will go on living for a long, long time. *His* memory of the Second Watson Letter (and nice use of the scare quotes there, since the 2nd Watson Letter was, of course, a complete Mopologetic fiction) may be "fuzzy," but mine isn't. I daresay that I remember the details every bit as well--perhaps even better!--than the Witnesses remembered the Gold Plates!
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

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Doctor Scratch wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2024 9:03 pm
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2024 6:48 pm

That video has over 13,000 views (and counting), all but guaranteeing the 2nd Watson Letter fiasco will remain fresh in the minds of thousands for decades to come.
Indeed! And look at this: more threats of banning/censorship if anyone dares to bring it up:
The Afore wrote:Incidentally, don't post here any more about the so-called "Second Watson Letter." You may be willing to dance to the Malevolent Stalker's tune, but I'm not. He wants to keep his slanderous accusation alive, and he's free to try. But I won't allow him the use of my own blog to do it.
The incident has a life of its own, and will go on living for a long, long time. *His* memory of the Second Watson Letter (and nice use of the scare quotes there, since the 2nd Watson Letter was, of course, a complete Mopologetic fiction) may be "fuzzy," but mine isn't. I daresay that I remember the details every bit as well--perhaps even better!--than the Witnesses remembered the Gold Plates!
Dan trades off of his 'reliability' and reputation. If he wants to toot his own horn as an apologist (rather than Middle Eastern scholar), then it will trigger the re-telling of stories of the gracious and tempered 'Metcalfe is a Butthead' article, claiming not to get paid for apologetics, the 2nd Watson Letter fiasco, and having FARMS effectively taken from him for planning the 100+ page hit piece on John Dehlin, to name a few. Just keep banging the drum slowly, Dan, and your greatest hits will be paraded out for all to see, time and time again.
"Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving god, while this same God drowned infants in their cribs." Sam Harris
Markk
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

Post by Markk »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2024 4:47 pm
Markk wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2024 4:25 pm
As one of the founding members or FARM's and recognized as the leading Mopologist of what we might call the "Golden Age" of LDS vs Evangelical- anti Mormon apologetic. Right or wrong I believe he relished that persona. If you were to take a poll from this community and ask who the leading LDS apologists of this era were, I doubt that few would say anyone other than Dan, even if by perception only.

I googled leading US scholars/university professors of Islam . And then the same for near eastern studies....Dan's name never came up. HIs main "professional" identity was in apologetics from what I can see. This board would most likely not exist if it weren't for Dan being an apologist. Do you disagree?
Sure. We all relish crafting our own personae and reaching for accomplishments we can be known by. We all have a pose, so to speak. You are the humble blue collar worker who was led to Christian salvation by the good work of Sandra Tanner. You remind us of this because you like that vision of yourself. I imagine DCP does relish who he has worked hard to become, and, by the way, still is. My goodness, the man just created two feature-length historical films on early Mormon history! He should feel proud of himself.

I am tired of people sniping at DCP to make themselves feel better. Hey, we don't agree with him. Fine. We don't care for how he does his apologetics. Cool. But why slag the guy's accomplishments? I think he has plenty to be proud of and feel satisfied about. I don't begrudge him his sense of accomplishment. If I were in his shoes, I would be pretty satisfied that I had done my best to defend my religion, raised a lot of money to aid in the effort, had seen much of the world, had written quite a lot, edited quite a lot, and had made a couple of movies. What's not to feel proud of there?
So in other words, it was his identity, and my assertion that he misses it and longs to stay relevant, is reasonable. And taking that a bit further, he feels deeply slighted by the new direction the church chose to go. Doesn't he insist he was fired? I can't remember.

If you believe that DCP's accomplishments are great and something to support, continue to support him then, but you might get a bit of push back on that by many here.

For the record where did I ever say I was led to a "Christian Salvation by the good work of Sandra Tanner?" I will just assume you are still butthurt and fuming inside over embarrassing yourself over the remarks you made about the Tanner's, and just making stuff up.
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Doctor Scratch
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

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Markk wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2024 2:02 am
Doesn't he insist he was fired? I can't remember.
Yes: he did/does. That’s a great and very important point. What a series of gifts he’s giving us during this Smithmas season! He told you in one of his recent responses to you that his “firing” was 100% the “fault” of Gerald Bradford. But in his email, DCP said, “You’ve achieved your objective. I resign.” So what led up to this? DCP used an analogy of “playing chess,” which suggests that he (DCP) ultimately realized that Bradford had “maneuvered the pieces on the board” to the point where DCP no longer had any chance of winning. So, what kind of “case” had Bradford amassed? You have to assume that there was so much evidence of problematic behavior that DCP at last felt that he could not talk his way out of it. In a very similar way, he has also been “checkmated” on the matter of the 2nd Watson Letter. I don’t know what became of the “fake doctors, but if they still exist, I hope they will devote their efforts full-time to getting the Afore to answer for the Second Watson Letter. He does not deserve to get away with lying about such a thing.
If you believe that DCP's accomplishments are great and something to support, continue to support him then, but you might get a bit of push back on that by many here.
I respect the Reverend’s generosity, and agree that The Afore should be able to feel some pride in the accomplishments that feel meaningful to him. The thing is (for me): DCP would *never* do the same for someone else. If you tried to say (e.g.) that D. Michael Quinn was one of the greatest Mormon historians, DCP would respond y trying to undercut Quinn’s accomplishments: “I can think of at least 20 historians who are better and more important than Quinn.”

For the Mopologists, there is no such thing as a critic who is a decent person, or a person who who has ever achieved anything meaningful. (Remember how DCP used to publicly mock Tal Bachmann’s hit song? Has there ever been a Mopologist who did something equivalent? Such as a financially successful movie?)

So, like I said: what a great gift this Smithmas Season that the truth of the Second Watson Letter is continuing to gain traction.
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

Post by Kishkumen »

Markk wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2024 2:02 am
If you believe that DCP's accomplishments are great and something to support, continue to support him then, but you might get a bit of push back on that by many here.

For the record where did I ever say I was led to a "Christian Salvation by the good work of Sandra Tanner?" I will just assume you are still butthurt and fuming inside over embarrassing yourself over the remarks you made about the Tanner's, and just making stuff up.
The fact that I hit a nerve by saying something as anodyne as the work of the Tanners being key in your exit from Mormonism tells us all we need to know about who is, and always has been, butthurt. LOL!!! Yikes.
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

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Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2024 3:32 am
Markk wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2024 2:02 am
If you believe that DCP's accomplishments are great and something to support, continue to support him then, but you might get a bit of push back on that by many here.

For the record where did I ever say I was led to a "Christian Salvation by the good work of Sandra Tanner?" I will just assume you are still butthurt and fuming inside over embarrassing yourself over the remarks you made about the Tanner's, and just making stuff up.
The fact that I hit a nerve by saying something as anodyne as the work of the Tanners being key in your exit from Mormonism tells us all we need to know about who is, and always has been, butthurt. LOL!!! Yikes.
You do an amazing podcast and still bring it.
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

Post by Kishkumen »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2024 3:34 am

You do an amazing podcast and still bring it.
Thanks, Exiled. I appreciate your kind words.
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

Post by Markk »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2024 3:32 am
Markk wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2024 2:02 am
If you believe that DCP's accomplishments are great and something to support, continue to support him then, but you might get a bit of push back on that by many here.

For the record where did I ever say I was led to a "Christian Salvation by the good work of Sandra Tanner?" I will just assume you are still butthurt and fuming inside over embarrassing yourself over the remarks you made about the Tanner's, and just making stuff up.
The fact that I hit a nerve by saying something as anodyne as the work of the Tanners being key in your exit from Mormonism tells us all we need to know about who is, and always has been, butthurt. LOL!!! Yikes.
Kish, it hit no nerve, I don't have any. I just pointed out you are not being honest. But if I am wrong you can certainly show me where I wrote that Sandra Tanner led me to Christ. If you would rather have me just show you what I actual wrote in regard to our exchange, I will. What you are calling "anodyne" is actually a diversion from your lie and your inability to emotionally cope with being corrected and challenged. What I wrote was that Mormonism Shadow or Reality was one of the first books I used to deconstruct from Mormonism and the false truth claims we were taught. The cover up is always worse that the crime, in this case a lie. Nice job Kish!
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