Trump Desires to be Sued Over Birthright Citizenship, Does Anyone Understand Why?

[canpakes]

Regarding ‘rewards’ - if a border crosser with the fake ID is working in the meantime (while awaiting their court date and chance to obtain a green card/LPR status) and having taxes pulled from his/her wages under that ID - isn’t the ‘reward’ being shared by their employer, both in work rendered and taxes paid that don’t credit back to them for social security? We can acknowledge that some will also use taxpayer resources, but a lot of Americans do the same.

That is just a strawman. It assumes so many things.

Not correct. It’s a question about a very typical situation, and offers no assumptions. It addresses your use of the word, ‘rewards’.

1. If they are here with a fake ID, that is somehow okay and not against the law. I can't do that, and either can you lawfully. If they are working here it is doing so illegally.

Is this something that you believe? I don’t see this in my post.

2. The court date that they are waiting for is a NTA, which is the start for deportation, and not citizenship.

It serves both purposes.

“If you're an alien in removal proceedings, your Individual Calendar Hearing is your chance to show your eligibility for relief or protection from removal.

You’ll have the opportunity to share evidence and explain to the judge why you are eligible for the application you seek.”

Per: https://portal.ice.gov/immigration-guide/court

If the person assigned the NTA makes a convincing case to the immigration judge, then they can move on to the next step towards citizenship.

3. If they really wanted a green card, they could have applied for one vis that legal process.

Yes, they can. Wait times for issuing the green card are reported to presently be unremarkable at around 9 to 14 months, after applying at the proper locations and as long as you fit one of the listed categories. After that, the 5-year minimum wait as a LPR begins, after which you can file your N400, after which you may have another 3 - 7 year wait for approval and citizenship.

But this doesn’t disqualify the ‘show up and be assigned an NTA’ option as a first step, which is technically a legal and installed route, although obviously riskier.

There’s some good news for applicants these days. Starting on January 25, no one will be required to show proof of COVID-19 vaccinations when filing paperwork, because even in the midst of virtually shutting down the border, it’s important to the Trump Administration to make the obligatory nod to MAGA conspiracists and vaccine snowflakes. : D

4. No, it is not shared by the employer. An employer pays employee taxes whether the person is legal or not. How on earth does an employer benefit from that? As far as business goes, an employer might benefit by having a lower overhead and greater profit, by hiring folks accepting lesser wages than citizens who demand a higher living wage. SS taxes are set.

Your quote is truncated. The benefit is shared by all citizen taxpayers because SS tax extracted from a paycheck made out to an illegal employee using stolen ID will not ever be factored into the retirement calculation for that person down the road if they became a citizen. Those tax dollars are captured and directed towards legal residents. A small benefit (‘reward’) for sure but the math is what it is.

5. LOL , are you really saying that legal citizens and illegal immigrants....have equal right for public services? Yes American citizens use and benefit from taxpayer resources.

I don’t see that in my post. Where are you seeing it?

...As far as the question of “are you saying ..?” ... well, you can read what I wrote. If that’s how you interpret it, then that’s what you’re going to see. But my point, in response to your comment about just hiring a lawyer to fill out an application, is meant to emphasize a point that you also made:

“ ... No one said it is easy, or fast. Nor should it be.”

Folks who’ve arrived at the border and assigned a court date are technically following the legal procedure, even as it’s not as apparent. Would you agree?

Folks that arrive at the border either get sent home, or receives a NTA, which is a promise to appear in regards to your removal from the US. It is not , in now way, the beginning of a legal citizenship. If one wants that they can apply, and if approved receive a green card, and after 5, or 6 years, they can apply for citizenship.

So you’ve said, and yet the reality of the situation is that you’re incorrect. It’s still a pathway to citizenship for some percentage of folks that are willing to just show up at the border and try their luck.

Either way, their presence has allowed a lot of Americans to benefit from their labor and low wage requirements. It’s a mixed bag, don’t you think?

[Markk]

I think you are way off on the reality of what is going on at the border and our communities.

A person with a NTA, is still an illegal immigrant. It does not make them legal. It is officially the first step for removal. The path to legal citizenship is by applying for a green card, no matter how long it takes. There is a reason it takes time....they vet the person.

Countless people come here and are taking advantage of the NTA, and will never go to court. It's hard to get a hard percentage number but it well over half and up to 90% will never show up at court from what I read. Also 100's of thousand of folks on the borders are released without a NTA. Just the lack of hard numbers shows me just how messed up and broken the system is.

Do you believe that folks afraid of the judges decision will show up at court? Do you think ones that are convicted criminals and gang members will show up?

Of the folks coming over the southern border what is the percentage of those that actually pay more taxes, than they receive in benefits? Do you understand that there is a whole black market type of economy on border towns, like LA. Do you know how many open swap meet style markets their are here and take cash only? Or a person selling fruit or flowers on corners? or pushing a cart with a bell on it? Cash only?

What do you want to happen at the border cakes, what is your solution? Honestly I would love for you to comedown here to So Ca, and spend the day with me, it would change your perspective of what is going on. You are living in a bubble.

More later

[canpakes]

I think you are way off on the reality of what is going on at the border and our communities.

I don't see anything in my post about “the reality of what is going on at the border and our communities”. Can you point out something specific?

A person with a NTA, is still an illegal immigrant. It does not make them legal. It is officially the first step for removal. The path to legal citizenship is by applying for a green card, no matter how long it takes. There is a reason it takes time....they vet the person.

And the NTA allows the person assigned it a chance to remain and complete the citizenship process.

Are you saying that we have immigration judges just to waste taxpayer dollars on non-sensical court appearances simply to rule that every person appearing before them is rejected? If that was the case, then why have them in the first place?

Countless people come here and are taking advantage of the NTA, and will never go to court.

Sure, because many of them will go elsewhere to find a job, etc., and plenty of folks will hire them regardless of their status, especially in industries prone to do so. Like the company that you work for.

It's hard to get a hard percentage number but it well over half and up to 90% will never show up at court from what I read. Also 100's of thousand of folks on the borders are released without a NTA. Just the lack of hard numbers shows me just how messed up and broken the system is.

Sure. Whatever that percentage is, those individuals have chosen to not work themselves through the citizenship process. They’ll remain non-cit residents in a foreign country for as long as they avoid it.

Do you believe that folks afraid of the judges decision will show up at court? Do you think ones that are convicted criminals and gang members will show up?

Odds are that either group meeting that description won’t.

Of the folks coming over the southern border what is the percentage of those that actually pay more taxes, than they receive in benefits? Do you understand that there is a whole black market type of economy on border towns, like LA. Do you know how many open swap meet style markets their are here and take cash only? Or a person selling fruit or flowers on corners? or pushing a cart with a bell on it? Cash only?

Yes, I’ve heard of garage sales and swap meets. : D

What do you want to happen at the border cakes,

Wait. There’s something called border cakes? These are probably delicious. Now I’m curious.

what is your solution? Honestly I would love for you to comedown here to So Ca, and spend the day with me, it would change your perspective of what is going on. You are living in a bubble.

I lived in SoCal, and worked for more than one company that employed folks ‘working the system’. There’s no bubble for you to pop on that one.

As far as my idea of how the immigration process could be simplified, I’ve posted that before. The post is probably a few years old; I’ll see if I can dig it up and link to it.

[canpakes]

Markk, I found that post, from about two years ago:

viewtopic.php?p=2825805#p2825805

Here’s what I said at the time:

I always liked the idea of folks having a clean record being allowed to easily enter the country and apply for legal citizen status, with the following basic conditions to apply:

1. No public assistance allowed for the first year after the applicant is granted citizenship status, with a 5-year ‘vesting’ period afterward, offering 20% of normal benefits in Year 2, increasing by that percentage each year until fully vested in Year 6.

2. Any felony conviction for an incident that occurs within the first 6 years of citizen residency (regardless of court decision occurring during or after the probationary period) results in an immediate deportation.

The approach would favor initial assistance through local organizations and family, and encourage new citizens to eschew activities that can put their citizenship at risk.

I’m sure that both sides of the issue can take objection with these two basic requirements, but they seem like a fair starting point in a debate about any changes to the system. Please note that as an aspie-addled moron, I haven’t thought this through for more than 3 minutes, and I’m not pretending to know how practical or fair this is under all circumstances. : D

Obvs this isn’t very comprehensive but it seems like a sensible start to a conversation.

[Markk]

I think you are way off on the reality of what is going on at the border and our communities.

I don't see anything in my post about “the reality of what is going on at the border and our communities”. Can you point out something specific?

A person with a NTA, is still an illegal immigrant. It does not make them legal. It is officially the first step for removal. The path to legal citizenship is by applying for a green card, no matter how long it takes. There is a reason it takes time....they vet the person.

And the NTA allows the person assigned it a chance to remain and complete the citizenship process.

Are you saying that we have immigration judges just to waste taxpayer dollars on non-sensical court appearances simply to rule that every person appearing before them is rejected? If that was the case, then why have them in the first place?

Countless people come here and are taking advantage of the NTA, and will never go to court.

Sure, because many of them will go elsewhere to find a job, etc., and plenty of folks will hire them regardless of their status, especially in industries prone to do so. Like the company that you work for.

It's hard to get a hard percentage number but it well over half and up to 90% will never show up at court from what I read. Also 100's of thousand of folks on the borders are released without a NTA. Just the lack of hard numbers shows me just how messed up and broken the system is.

Sure. Whatever that percentage is, those individuals have chosen to not work themselves through the citizenship process. They’ll remain non-cit residents in a foreign country for as long as they avoid it.

Do you believe that folks afraid of the judges decision will show up at court? Do you think ones that are convicted criminals and gang members will show up?

Odds are that either group meeting that description won’t.

Of the folks coming over the southern border what is the percentage of those that actually pay more taxes, than they receive in benefits? Do you understand that there is a whole black market type of economy on border towns, like LA. Do you know how many open swap meet style markets their are here and take cash only? Or a person selling fruit or flowers on corners? or pushing a cart with a bell on it? Cash only?

Yes, I’ve heard of garage sales and swap meets. : D

What do you want to happen at the border cakes,

Wait. There’s something called border cakes? These are probably delicious. Now I’m curious.

what is your solution? Honestly I would love for you to comedown here to So Ca, and spend the day with me, it would change your perspective of what is going on. You are living in a bubble.

I lived in SoCal, and worked for more than one company that employed folks ‘working the system’. There’s no bubble for you to pop on that one.

As far as my idea of how the immigration process could be simplified, I’ve posted that before. The post is probably a few years old; I’ll see if I can dig it up and link to it.

You are posting from a perspective that is just not in touch with the realities of the issue, problems, concerns, and burdens that illegal immigration causes. The NTA is the first process for removal, and has been, and is currently being taken advantage of by millions of people that abuse it. It is not a good thing yet you want to support this blindly. I think it is a good thing that our government is deporting those that bilked the system, including not appearing as promised with their notices to appear; you do not. We are not deporting people that appeared before a judge and had a legit reason to be here without standing in line like everybody else.

And like always, you dance around your positions.

You lived in so ca when? What years? San Clemente? What kind of work?

I'll ask again, what is your solution? Start with the millions that are here without an NTA, that ducked their court date on their promise to appear, and those here on expired visa's (green cards).

[Markk]

Markk, I found that post, from about two years ago:

viewtopic.php?p=2825805#p2825805

Here’s what I said at the time:

I always liked the idea of folks having a clean record being allowed to easily enter the country and apply for legal citizen status, with the following basic conditions to apply:

1. No public assistance allowed for the first year after the applicant is granted citizenship status, with a 5-year ‘vesting’ period afterward, offering 20% of normal benefits in Year 2, increasing by that percentage each year until fully vested in Year 6.

2. Any felony conviction for an incident that occurs within the first 6 years of citizen residency (regardless of court decision occurring during or after the probationary period) results in an immediate deportation.

The approach would favor initial assistance through local organizations and family, and encourage new citizens to eschew activities that can put their citizenship at risk.

I’m sure that both sides of the issue can take objection with these two basic requirements, but they seem like a fair starting point in a debate about any changes to the system. Please note that as an aspie-addled moron, I haven’t thought this through for more than 3 minutes, and I’m not pretending to know how practical or fair this is under all circumstances. : D

Obvs this isn’t very comprehensive but it seems like a sensible start to a conversation.

So you believe they have to fist apply, be vetted and approved as having a clean record, before they can enter?

1. That does not make much sense. It takes 5-6 years to have citizenship granted. You want to make a legal citizen that did everything right, a lower class citizen? This does not address the problems we have at the border...it is a post award thing.

2.LOL...well, sanctuary cities don't even report non citizens that commit crimes today, including felonies, to ICE, for deportation. I am convinced by your "Idea" here, you are not up to speed on what is going on. My friend (his team) recently busted a immigrant with 27kgs of coke in a gas tank. He had to fight for LA county jail to process him, then the guy was released on no bail...it was 2 million dollars worth of coke, and they refused to call ice. This happens everyday in these cities.

You want to kick citizens out of the country. So you believe that there will be a tiered citizenship system? So if a male person becomes a citizen, starts a family, and 5 years after becoming a citizen....you will deport him? What about his family, who are also citizens?

The approach would favor initial assistance through local organizations and family, and encourage new citizens to eschew activities that can put their citizenship at risk

.

Who's is doing this exactly? What are these local organizations? What if they don't have family? Who is going to manage that?

I’m sure that both sides of the issue can take objection with these two basic requirements, but they seem like a fair starting point in a debate about any changes to the system. Please note that as an aspie-addled moron, I haven’t thought this through for more than 3 minutes, and I’m not pretending to know how practical or fair this is under all circumstances. : D

Well, you have had a few years now to think this through, and to my point in my last post....you are living in a bubble and do not understand the issues, concerns, problems and burdens that Immigration puts on our country.

[canpakes]

ee if I can dig it You are posting from a perspective that is just not in touch with the realities of the issue, problems, concerns, and burdens that illegal immigration causes.

You haven’t really talked about any of those things yet. Except, you did mention swap meets.

The NTA is the first process for removal, and has been, and is currently being taken advantage of by millions of people that abuse it.

It is taken advantage of precisely because it includes a path to citizenship within its function.

It is not a good thing yet you want to support this blindly.

I think you’ve imagined that one. I don’t see this in any of my posts. Did you put the right reading glasses on, this morning?

I think it is a good thing that our government is deporting those that bilked the system, including not appearing as promised with their notices to appear; you do not.

Here you’re making up something else that isn’t in my posts.

Did you spill your coffee on your keyboard this morning instead of drinking it?

We are not deporting people that appeared before a judge and had a legit reason to be here without standing in line like everybody else.

Which is the case sometimes, and my point.

And like always, you dance around your positions.

I don’t see any dancing. Are you sure that you didn’t pop too many peyote gummies this morning?

You lived in so ca when? What years? San Clemente? What kind of work?

No, I did not live in CA during the year San Clemente. I don’t think that we have a year with that name. Years usually go by numbers.

I'll ask again, what is your solution? Start with the millions that are here without an NTA, that ducked their court date on their promise to appear, and those here on expired visa's (green cards).

There are a few solutions, from deportation without regard to any considerations, to amnesty. As well, their price tag varies wildly.

As example, do you believe that all illegal/non-documented immigrant residents should be deported, including those that came here as small children but are now adults?

[Gadianton]

you are living in a bubble and do not understand the issues, concerns, problems and burdens that Immigration puts on our country.

as if you understand the issues, problems, and burdens that immigration puts on our country...you just know you're hopping mad about somethin'.

You went into a meltdown over the spot where you kissed your first girl succumbing to urban decay and blamed illegal immigrants on the whole thing. So far, there has been no realistic presentation of the problems of "immigration" from you nor your party, the worst offender being the guy you elected.
My right wing friend and his wife are both here because of illegal immigration and they feel the same way you do.

[canpakes]

So you believe they have to fist apply, …

‘Fist applying’ could be a great idea. Admittance by combat. Maybe we can have them fight Marjorie Taylor-Greene one by one, or maybe a battle royale where the last one standing gets citizenship, and the losers have to go tend to the landscaping at Mar-a-Lago after being assigned only temporary work visas.

…be vetted and approved as having a clean record, before they can enter?

That seems reasonable. Do you disagree with vetting if we can do so ?

1. That does not make much sense. It takes 5-6 years to have citizenship granted. You want to make a legal citizen that did everything right, a lower class citizen?

Why does this make anyone a lower class citizen? We have requirements for government assistance imposed on American citizens, too.

This does not address the problems we have at the border...it is a post award thing.

OK, then. Hire more immigration judges and increase green card application processing speed. Then applicants can start their 5-year LPR requirement within a reasonable time frame.

2.LOL...well, sanctuary cities don't even report non citizens that commit crimes today, including felonies, to ICE, for deportation.

A record is a record. States aren’t hiding criminal records for people.

I am convinced by your "Idea" here, you are not up to speed on what is going on. My friend (his team) recently busted a immigrant with 27kgs of coke in a gas tank. He had to fight for LA county jail to process him, then the guy was released on no bail...it was 2 million dollars worth of coke, and they refused to call ice. This happens everyday in these cities.

This happens with citizens, as well. Yours is a criminal justice issue. It’s not unique to illegals.

You want to kick citizens out of the country.

We do this now. See: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia ... moved.html

So you believe that there will be a tiered citizenship system?

We do this now. See previous link.

So if a male person becomes a citizen, starts a family, and 5 years after becoming a citizen....you will deport him? What about his family, who are also citizens?

That’s always been the sticky wicket. Sort of like DACA. And if the system remains similar then deportation is always a possibility. There’s no need to deport an entire family for the crimes of one member, as Trump has proposed. But families may need to work within their network across both their new and previous home, to resolve the status of the deported individual.

Like I said, I wasn’t proposing a completely defined system. Details like this need to be discussed and resolved. So, add your own proposals to the mix … if you are interested in being part of the solution.

The approach would favor initial assistance through local organizations and family, and encourage new citizens to eschew activities that can put their citizenship at risk

Who's is doing this exactly? What are these local organizations? What if they don't have family? Who is going to manage that?

Charitable organizations manage assistance on their own.

You know how they work, right?

Well, you have had a few years now to think this through, and to my point in my last post....you are living in a bubble and do not understand the issues, concerns, problems and burdens that Immigration puts on our country.

That’s just your usual habit of trying to define other people’s opinions for them, again.

You’re free to discuss any of that - which you really haven’t yet.

[Markk]

ee if I can dig it You are posting from a perspective that is just not in touch with the realities of the issue, problems, concerns, and burdens that illegal immigration causes.

You haven’t really talked about any of those things yet. Except, you did mention swap meets.

The NTA is the first process for removal, and has been, and is currently being taken advantage of by millions of people that abuse it.

It is taken advantage of precisely because it includes a path to citizenship within its function.

It is not a good thing yet you want to support this blindly.

I think you’ve imagined that one. I don’t see this in any of my posts. Did you put the right reading glasses on, this morning?

I think it is a good thing that our government is deporting those that bilked the system, including not appearing as promised with their notices to appear; you do not.

Here you’re making up something else that isn’t in my posts.

Did you spill your coffee on your keyboard this morning instead of drinking it?

We are not deporting people that appeared before a judge and had a legit reason to be here without standing in line like everybody else.

Which is the case sometimes, and my point.

And like always, you dance around your positions.

I don’t see any dancing. Are you sure that you didn’t pop too many peyote gummies this morning?

You lived in so ca when? What years? San Clemente? What kind of work?

No, I did not live in CA during the year San Clemente. I don’t think that we have a year with that name. Years usually go by numbers.

I'll ask again, what is your solution? Start with the millions that are here without an NTA, that ducked their court date on their promise to appear, and those here on expired visa's (green cards).

There are a few solutions, from deportation without regard to any considerations, to amnesty. As well, their price tag varies wildly.

As example, do you believe that all illegal/non-documented immigrant residents should be deported, including those that came here as small children but are now adults?

You are clearly dancing around. And avoiding answering my questions, as always.

I believe that all people that come here illegally, that have made no efforts to follow the law, should be deported, yes. We have had amnesties so many have had chances to come forward and do things right, that didn't.

I understand it will get sicky with many, and those will have to be fought out in the courts. We have to get this mess straightened out, and there will be thought decisions made. I would be open to have selected amnesty to productive illegal immigrants, that came here young at know fault of their own, and have no place to go. Again it won't be easy, but ignoring we have a huge problem is not working.

What people do you believe that should be deported? Who should be allowed to stay?

Which is the case sometimes, and my point.

What about the millions that never show up, and those that never received a NTA, should they be deported? Can we agree that the NTA system is being exploited, and needs reform?

Do you have a problem with criminals and gang members who are here illegally being deported?