Question for Don Bradley

[Shulem]

Make sure students understand that the curse mentioned in this chapter was separation from God. The changing of the Lamanites’ skin was only a mark or sign of the curse.

Book of Mormon Seminary Teacher Manual

How on God's green earth was the changing of the Lamanites' skin only a mark or sign of the curse? You would think that Lamanite men, fair-skinned ladies, and little children would have been distressed to wake up one morning only to find their skins have turned dark as if some kind of disease or curse had struck them in an instant, suddenly!

Imagine if all the white and delightsome Mormon pioneers living in the Rockies had woken up one morning only to discover their skins turned dark like that of a black stone made of flint. Do you think they would have regarded it as a curse the Lord God did cause to come upon them? It would have been God-awful! Imagine the cries of distress and terror wailing out of the mouths of the white and delightsome women of the Salt Lake valley! Would they not have cried to Brigham enquiring why the Lord had cursed them? And what of Brigham's wives being turned dark? Would he still bed down with his harem to mix his seed and make dark babies to become new subjects of the curse?

And yet the Church continues with this apologetic lying dodge in avoiding the idea that a skin color change from white to dark was not a curse but only that they had been kicked out of God's Nephi's sanctimonious presence:

1. What was the curse?

The curse is clearly defined in 2 Nephi 5:20 as being “cut off from the presence of the Lord.” The dark skin of the Lamanites was not the curse.

3. Why was the mark of dark skin set upon the Lamanites?

This was a specific mark or sign for a specific set of circumstances. Nephi explained, “That they [the Lamanites] might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them” (2 Nephi 5:21).

A specific mark or sign for a specific set of circumstances? What a worthless and empty statement. What might the Bible say in such awful circumstances?

And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.

If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the Lord of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.

Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.

[Shulem]

Make sure students understand that the curse mentioned in this chapter was separation from God. The changing of the Lamanites’ skin was only a mark or sign of the curse.

• How does 2 Nephi 5:21 help you understand why the Lamanites were cut off from the presence of the Lord? (You may want to explain that flint is a hard stone. In saying that the Lamanites “had become like unto a flint,” Nephi emphasized the hardness of the Lamanites’ hearts. To be hard-hearted is to be unresponsive to the promptings of the Spirit of God.)

The manual completely dodges the point of Lamanite white skin changing into a "skin of blackness" in resembling a flint which is not only a hard stone but is quite dark -- which is the main point Nephi was stressing in making his comparison between skin color and stone color. The cursing had come upon them because they had hardened their hearts which resulted in dark skin upon their bodies, compliments of God's curse which was racial profiling. But the Seminary Manual does not want students to connect how a dark flint was exactly what Nephi Joseph Smith implied when stating "they were white" but afterward were cursed with a "skin of blackness." The connection between a hard heart and a hard stone is a disingenuous dodge and fails to take into consideration the full context of what the text implies.

Now, note the connection (red writing) proves that dark skin "like unto a flint" *IS* the curse:

"And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing . . . . a  skin of blackness to come upon them.

And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a  skin of blackness to come upon them.

Where are you, Don Bradley? Your imaginary parallels and echoes have no power here. Not even Kish can save you!

The gloves are coming off!

[Shulem]

The dark skin of the Lamanites was not the curse.

vs.

And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing . . . . a  skin of blackness to come upon them.

Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins...

Think about it. The use of the word "come" implies how something will draw nigh and approach and when it arrives it will be present. The skin of blackness meets that criteria. On the other hand, lying apologists would have us think the curse only refers to the withdrawal and absence of the Spirit but this implies a departure and therefore cannot come! Yes, we can accept how the Spirit departed but then the curse (skin of blackness) came! The so called "mark or sign" described by apologists was the curse, even as Jacob said: "the cursing which hath come upon their skins!"

Here are a pair of biblical verses that use the word "come" in the same way Nephi does:

And when the men of Israel turned again, the men of Benjamin were amazed: for they saw that evil was come upon them.

Israel was holiness unto the Lord, and the firstfruits of his increase: all that devour him shall offend; evil shall come upon them, saith the Lord.

Here are a pair of verses from Nephi that use the word "come" just as he did with the skin of blackness:

And after they have hardened their hearts and  stiffened their necks against the Holy One of Israel, behold, the judgments of the Holy One of Israel shall come upon them. And the day cometh that they shall be smitten and afflicted.

Wherefore, because of their iniquities, destructions, famines, pestilences, and bloodshed shall come upon them; and they who shall not be destroyed shall be scattered among all nations.

Here are a pair of verses from Joseph Smith that use the word "come" just as Nephi did:

I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

Wherefore, verily I say, let the wicked take heed, and let the rebellious fear and tremble; and let the unbelieving hold their lips, for the day of wrath shall come upon them as a whirlwind, and all flesh shall know that I am God.

It's an open and shut case. The apologists are liars.

[Moksha]

Kish is so kind. He will defend the rights of others to have beliefs disjointed from what we understand as reality, so he needs a break on that point. Kindness is a virtue that should be a defense in and of itself.

Since Mormons do insist on a skin curse in explaining the stories of Lamanites as opposed to the Beringia land bridge crossing, it would be interesting to hear their explanation for an Asiatic DNA curse. I am imagining an explanation from LDS apologists determining its relationship to future Asians drinking tea.

[bbbbbbb]

Kish is so kind. He will defend the rights of others to have beliefs disjointed from what we understand as reality, so he needs a break on that point. Kindness is a virtue that should be a defense in and of itself.

Since Mormons do insist on a skin curse in explaining the stories of Lamanites as opposed to the Beringia land bridge crossing, it would be interesting to hear their explanation for an Asiatic DNA curse. I am imagining an explanation from LDS apologists determining its relationship to future Asians drinking tea.

As a curious aside, the most popular beverage, by a huge margin, in China is not tea, but hot water. The People's Communist Party of China exports virtually all of the tea produced in China, leaving folks with hot water to enjoy. The PCP, you see, doesn't just take 10% of its citizens income, but lays claim to all of it.

[Moksha]

As a curious aside, the most popular beverage, by a huge margin, in China is not tea, but hot water. The People's Communist Party of China exports virtually all of the tea produced in China, leaving folks with hot water to enjoy. The PCP, you see, doesn't just take 10% of its citizens income, but lays claim to all of it.

Statistics, schmatistics! It is the appearance that is important to Mormons. For instance, Crown Burger took a hit in Utah when it was revealed to the Saints that pastrami is smoked and all good Mormons know that smoking is against the Word of Wisdom commandment.

Oolong tea is wonderful and could be an excellent second beverage in Coffee with Kish!!!

[Shulem]

And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing . . . . a  skin of blackness to come upon them.

Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins...

Think about it. The use of the word "come" implies how something will draw nigh and approach and when it arrives it will be present. The skin of blackness meets that criteria. On the other hand, lying apologists would have us think the curse only refers to the withdrawal and absence of the Spirit but this implies a departure and therefore cannot come! Yes, we can accept how the Spirit departed but then the curse (skin of blackness) came! The so called "mark or sign" described by apologists was the curse, even as Jacob said: "the cursing which hath come upon their skins!"

Not long after the Book of Mormon was published, Smith repeated his racist ideas of black skin being a curse to the people of Canaan in the so-called Book of Moses who lived during Antediluvian times:

8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

22 And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.

Now, for a little fun; let's plug in Book of Moses verbiage into Book of Mormon racism and see if it works:

• there was a blackness came upon all the children of Laman & Lemuel

• for the seed of Laman & Lemuel were black

Yep, it works! Let the apologists choke on that!

[Shulem]

Kish is so kind. He will defend the rights of others to have beliefs disjointed from what we understand as reality, so he needs a break on that point. Kindness is a virtue that should be a defense in and of itself.

Moksha,

I believe in being kind and it's how I want to be.

But, in this case, the gloves are off. Anything goes.

I want to punch the Church right in its f-ing face. Anyone who gets in my way is going to get swatted and beat up.

This is a f-ing fight!

[Moksha]

But, in this case, the gloves are off. Anything goes.

I want to punch the Church right in its f-ing face. Anyone who gets in my way is going to get swatted and beat up.

This is a f-ing fight!

We could call it the Thrilla in Tooele.

In the Blue trunks, we have Shulem and in the Red trunks, we have the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day (known to the world as The Mormons).

Let's get ready to Rumble!!!

Shulem, you can choose your color. I thought red would be best for the Church because of the Republican and Trump connection. Definitely not Black because of that curse stuff!!!

[Shulem]

Let's get ready to Rumble!!!

Hell yeah, baby. Let's rock. I dare anyone to take Shulem on. Just try it. Make my day!