The Fentanyl Crisis thread

[canpakes]

There’s nothing of note to disagree with. As there would be nothing to disagree with if this executive order contained the sentence, “President Trump has declared that oranges are usually orange in color, and that fentanyl pills are smaller than oranges!”

Such a declaration is neither inaccurate nor would anyone disagree. But, how useful is that sentence in dealing with fentanyl abuse?

The just to be clear, we can agree on some key points here...

1. "The [there is an] extraordinary threat posed by illegal aliens and drugs,"
2. "including deadly fentanyl, constitutes a national emergency ..."
3. "the Mexican drug trafficking organizations have an intolerable alliance with the government of Mexico."
4. "The government of Mexico has afforded safe havens for the cartels to engage in the manufacturing and transportation of dangerous narcotics,
which collectively have led to the overdose deaths of hundreds of thousands of American victims. ..."
5. ..."This alliance endangers the national security of the United States, and we must eradicate the influence of these dangerous cartels."
6. ..." Previous Administrations failed to fully leverage America’s economic position as a tool to secure our borders against illegal migration and
combat the scourge of fentanyl, preferring to let problems fester. "

There are are lot more, but lets focus on these then I will go through the next batch. I just want to be clear on what we agree on, which will help us sort through what we disagree on.

Lots of ‘oranges are usually orange’ statements there.

I have no interest in discussing statements of conditions which serve only to fluff up an executive order. These are not plans to address the fentanyl crisis. I’m happy to discuss plans to address the fentanyl crisis.

To answer your questions....

What does that last line even mean? What is the criteria for Drugs (capital D in this case, because it looks much more serious-er that way) to be considered no longer doing “this Invasion of our Country!” ..?

First it is in the context of "BUILDING ON PAST SUCCESS: President Trump continues to demonstrate his commitment to ensuring U.S. trade policy serves the national interest."

The last line:
”This Tariff will remain in effect until such time as Drugs, in particular Fentanyl, and all Illegal Aliens stop this Invasion of our Country!”

That he will hold tariffs over the heads of Mexico and Canada, until drugs stop coming over the border, and people stop entering our country illegally. We know now that he suspended the order given they do their share in securing the borders and fighting the drug trafficking.

Trump and many other believe that 10 million people coming here basically unvetted, including some very bad folks, an invasion. He and others believe that they should follow our immigration laws.

That is my opinion of what that means.

To restate (and correct me as required), then tariffs are only discontinued if and when not even one person crosses the border and not even one instance of a pill or other kind of drug is ever found to have entered this country from another country. Correct?

- Is this realistic?
- What is the initial timeline? 6 months? A year?
- If we find a pill in the back of Billy’s F150 when he comes back from Rocky Point, after Trump had decided that maybe tariffs could be rescinded, do we then reinstate the tariffs? For how long?
- When the robo-dogs, auto cannons, heat-targeting lasers, sand traps laced with fiberglass and chlorine, MAGA volunteer snipers and venomous spider hordes have eliminated all of the possible border crossers for months, yet fentanyl users in America keep using and dying, then what?

“It is estimated that federal officials are only able to seize a fraction of the fentanyl smuggled across the southern border.”

OK, so the US - with its vast resources - can only intercept that small fraction, but we’re expecting a nation like Mexico to be able to completely stem the flow of all border-crossing fentanyl and precursors?

Yes. It is about will. If we work together we can make a huge dent or more in it. Vast resources only work if we use them. As an example in Ca. If a DEA agent busts a illegal immigrant for having a million fentanyl tablets, and for murder, they by law, can't contact ICE. Even if it was a joint task force with ICE....they are not allowed to communicate they are illegal. Point being we have to have the will.

Is this then requiring 100% of all product and people to be stopped by Mexico alone? Not to be pedantic, but that’s one reading of the language here. Wouldn’t it be more practical to list goals with more specificity as to the process rather than using this sort of childish phrasing?

And would this requirement be the result of the Trump Administration removing valuable resources that could be used to intercept drugs, and having them instead concentrate on rounding up ordinary immigrants who came in via the CBP One app and awaiting their court date, etc.?

In the meantime, what assistance can we provide addicts today ? Is the idea to just wait out the situation to see how much less fentanyl might make it across, but just twiddle our thumbs otherwise?

No, we have programs coming out of our ears for any addicted person that wants help. Federal, State, local , and private. But, and this is the reality, like us teaming with Mexico and Canada with a united will, if an addicted person on drugs or alcohol, does not want help, there is nothing we can really do. If you have dealt with addiction or with someone close, you will get that.

What would be the preferred approach to addicted Americans who “do not want help”? Are mass deportation measures a help to their situation? Asking as these folks seem to represent a good sized chunk of the ‘crisis’ part of a ‘fentanyl crisis’.

That being the case, is there anything else that Trump has proposed to assist addicted Americans and to bring the fentanyl crisis to an end?

I don't know, he has only been is office for 3 weeks. He has cut some programs, that I assume they thought weren't working. What we know is that under Biden it was not working. It will take some time to see how this all unfolds, and what programs will be funded, and which ones won't.

Well, that’s odd. Project 2025 has been around for at least a year and is 900 pages long. Are you telling me that the architects of the Second Trump Presidency either cared not to develop any fentanyl plan other than Mass Deportations!! or Tariffs!!, or that they simply didn’t think that the crisis was worth any more thinking than that?

[Markk]

Markk: The just to be clear, we can agree on some key points here...

1. "The [there is an] extraordinary threat posed by illegal aliens and drugs,"
2. "including deadly fentanyl, constitutes a national emergency ..."
3. "the Mexican drug trafficking organizations have an intolerable alliance with the government of Mexico."
4. "The government of Mexico has afforded safe havens for the cartels to engage in the manufacturing and transportation of dangerous narcotics,
which collectively have led to the overdose deaths of hundreds of thousands of American victims. ..."
5. ..."This alliance endangers the national security of the United States, and we must eradicate the influence of these dangerous cartels."
6. ..." Previous Administrations failed to fully leverage America’s economic position as a tool to secure our borders against illegal migration and
combat the scourge of fentanyl, preferring to let problems fester. "

There are are lot more, but lets focus on these then I will go through the next batch. I just want to be clear on what we agree on, which will help us sort through what we disagree on.

CanPakes: Lots of ‘oranges are usually orange’ statements there.

I have no interest in discussing statements of conditions which serve only to fluff up an executive order. These are not plans to address the fentanyl crisis. I’m happy to discuss plans to address the fentanyl crisis.

That is just a cop out and you know it. These, in part, are reasons why he has threatened these countries tariffs, in order to force them to do their fair share in combating the fentanyl crisis that is killing tens of thousands Americans each year, and costing the tax payers trillions of dollars.

The white house fact sheet, that ironically you pasted, is in its self a plan to combat the fentanyl epidemic and the illegal immigration that comes with it.

I will move forward that you agree with this baseline that describes the very baseline of the issue you pasted them for; the the fentanyl crisis.

But in my opinion the perception is that you are having a hard time dealing with all the issues with the border, and you can only deal with parts that you feel shed a negative light on Trump.

[canpakes]

The just to be clear, we can agree on some key points here...

1. "The [there is an] extraordinary threat posed by illegal aliens and drugs,"
2. "including deadly fentanyl, constitutes a national emergency ..."
3. "the Mexican drug trafficking organizations have an intolerable alliance with the government of Mexico."
4. "The government of Mexico has afforded safe havens for the cartels to engage in the manufacturing and transportation of dangerous narcotics,
which collectively have led to the overdose deaths of hundreds of thousands of American victims. ..."
5. ..."This alliance endangers the national security of the United States, and we must eradicate the influence of these dangerous cartels."
6. ..." Previous Administrations failed to fully leverage America’s economic position as a tool to secure our borders against illegal migration and
combat the scourge of fentanyl, preferring to let problems fester. "

There are are lot more, but lets focus on these then I will go through the next batch. I just want to be clear on what we agree on, which will help us sort through what we disagree on.

Lots of ‘oranges are usually orange’ statements there.

I have no interest in discussing statements of conditions which serve only to fluff up an executive order. These are not plans to address the fentanyl crisis. I’m happy to discuss plans to address the fentanyl crisis.

That is just a cop out and you know it. These, in part, are reasons why he has threatened these countries tariffs, in order to force them to do their fair share in combating the fentanyl crisis that is killing tens of thousands Americans each year, and costing the tax payers trillions of dollars.

None of those things speak to resolving ‘the fentanyl crisis’.

The white house fact sheet, that ironically you pasted, is in its self a plan to combat the fentanyl epidemic and the illegal immigration that comes with it.

And that plan is … Tariffs!

I didn’t see anything else concrete, and even the tariff plan is poorly defined as regards conditions for continuance and expected performance objectives with regard to a claimed goal of solving ‘the fentanyl crisis’.

Did I miss something? Did you miss something?

I will move forward that you agree with this baseline that describes the very baseline of the issue you pasted them for; the ‘the fentanyl crisis’.

This baseline describes the baseline?

Will this baseline description of the baseline be used to create concepts of a plan to resolve ‘the fentanyl crisis’?

But in my opinion the perception is that you are having a hard time dealing with all the issues with the border, and you can only deal with parts that you feel shed a negative light on Trump.

What issues am I dealing with at the border? Resolving ‘the fentanyl crisis’? Does someone have a plan for that, other than tariffs?

[canpakes]

.
Markk, perhaps it helps if we just simplify those 6 points from the executive order into fewer words, so that you can ask yourself what they do to address the fentanyl crisis.

Check it out:

1. "Drugs and Illegals BAD!"
2. "Fentanyl BAD!"
3. "Mexico BAD!"
4. "Mexico very, VERY BAD!"
5. "Cartels BAD! BAD Mexico! BAD Cartels!!"
6. “Biden ALSO BAD..!!"

OK. With all of that now out of the way, is there anything in this executive order - or all of the other items on the White House website - other than … Tariffs! … that has been proposed to rectify all of this BAD stuff?

Because that’s what I was pointing out when you engaged that conclusion.

[Marcus]

No, I disagree with your 6 points because imbedded within them you are assuming your conclusion.

...The just to be clear, we can agree on some key points here...

1. "The [there is an] extraordinary threat posed by illegal aliens and drugs,"
2. "including deadly fentanyl, constitutes a national emergency ..."
3. "the Mexican drug trafficking organizations have an intolerable alliance with the government of Mexico."
4. "The government of Mexico has afforded safe havens for the cartels to engage in the manufacturing and transportation of dangerous narcotics,
which collectively have led to the overdose deaths of hundreds of thousands of American victims. ..."
5. ..."This alliance endangers the national security of the United States, and we must eradicate the influence of these dangerous cartels."
6. ..." Previous Administrations failed to fully leverage America’s economic position as a tool to secure our borders against illegal migration and
combat the scourge of fentanyl, preferring to let problems fester. "

There are are lot more, but lets focus on these then I will go through the next batch. I just want to be clear on what we agree on, which will help us sort through what we disagree on...

Would you please re-read PG's post about 'begging the question'?

I'll start you off with a hint. When you assume, in 1, that the threat is "illegal aliens and drugs" you are making the assumption up front that the two are together the threat.

It's no surprise you conclude, in 6, the need for tool that will jointly "secure our borders against illegal migration and
combat the scourge of fentanyl." As I pointed out above, you assumed your conclusion in part 1.

Can you re-write those without the logical fallacy?

[Markk]

Canpakes wrote: To restate (and correct me as required), then tariffs are only discontinued if and when not even one person crosses the border and not even one instance of a pill or other kind of drug is ever found to have entered this country from another country. Correct?

- Is this realistic?
- What is the initial timeline? 6 months? A year?
- If we find a pill in the back of Billy’s F150 when he comes back from Rocky Point, after Trump had decided that maybe tariffs could be rescinded, do we then reinstate the tariffs? For how long?
- When the robo-dogs, auto cannons, heat-targeting lasers, sand traps laced with fiberglass and chlorine, MAGA volunteer snipers and venomous spider hordes have eliminated all of the possible border crossers for months, yet fentanyl users in America keep using and dying, then what?

I responded to your quotes here and right before I was ready to send it, my grand daughters little doll lost a ear and she panicked and I had to go glue it back on in my shop, and when I returned it was gone, Lol...I made the mistake to leave my LT open on my chair, with a two year old in the room...so this is my 166 pages abridged version.

You are incorrect. The tariff's were suspended. They are technically in effect and will be "un-suspended" if Mexico and Canada do not uphold their promise and agreement.

It is naïve to think that the war of drugs and illegal immigration will ever be totally won. Again you are incorrect. You are just trying to create some sort of straw-man scenario. I won't comment on whether it is because you really believe that, or you are just looking for a way out of objectively addressing what the fact sheet addresses, rather clearly, that you posted and already conceded as being factual, just as a orange is orange.

I'll paste this now and move to the next one before another ear comes off a doll. We have our grand children over today for the holiday. They had donuts this morning and are bouncing off the walls. If you have never heard of "Danny Go," click on this and envision this for and hour and half with a 2 and 5 year old on a donut high. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEUTY8n2iZo

[canpakes]

I responded to your quotes here and right before I was ready to send it, my grand daughter’s little doll lost an ear and she panicked and …

I can fix that. I have a tariff plan.

It is naïve to think that the war of drugs and illegal immigration will ever be totally won. Again you are incorrect.

I would be incorrect, if I had ever made that claim. And the fact that the border can’t be make 100% leakproof with respect to either drugs or border crossers was my point, with regard to the completely squishy and non-committed ‘criteria’ for how and when tariffs will apply, or be rescinded.

You are just trying to create some sort of straw-man scenario.

No need. You have that department covered.

I won't comment on whether it is because you really believe that, or you are just looking for a way out of objectively addressing what the fact sheet addresses, rather clearly, that you posted and already conceded as being factual, just as a orange is orange.

I don’t care about ‘fact sheet’ points 1 through 6.

I’m interested in looking at realistic solutions, not in wading through the list of why Trump and MAGA hate Mexico and immigrants.

I'll paste this now and move to the next one before another ear comes off a doll. We have our grand children over today for the holiday. They had donuts this morning and are bouncing off the walls. If you have never heard of "Danny Go," click on this and envision this for and hour and half with a 2 and 5 year old on a donut high. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEUTY8n2iZo

I don’t know if you have any Bosas Donuts locations there like we did in Arizona, but if you do, go there. They’re awesome, and the chain is owned by a Latino family, so get them now before they’re gone. ; )

[Markk]

Is this then requiring 100% of all product and people to be stopped by Mexico alone? Not to be pedantic, but that’s one reading of the language here. Wouldn’t it be more practical to list goals with more specificity as to the process rather than using this sort of childish phrasing? ..."

That is just non-sense. See my last post. If that is how you view politics you must be very disillusioned by all parties and politicians. If you take these kind of statements in a wooden literal sense it is no wonder you are so mixed up.

And would this requirement be the result of the Trump Administration removing valuable resources that could be used to intercept drugs, and having them instead concentrate on rounding up ordinary immigrants who came in via the CBP One app and awaiting their court date, etc.?

No. We are more than capable of multi tasking, we are the greatest country in the world with the greatest economy. We have specific departments to deal with the different issues in our country and world. We have joint task forces where they can join together and share intelligence and resources to combat the different issues that we have to deal with.

My friend that I have commented about here is in a joint task force with the the county he works for, with the FBI, ICE, DEA and other local and federal departments. They focus on narcotics and gangs in So Ca. And it is only partly funded by the government, it is primarily funded by how much cash they seize. They receive 80% of it for salary and equipment. So if they seize a million dollars in cash they split 800k between the task force. They have quotas to meet, or the program with be terminated. The also get grants from time to time to help.

Point being we have specific departments to deal with their respective purposes and different ways to fund them. We are not a third world country, we have the capability to deal with this. If we are giving billions and billions to other countries, we can certainly afford to fund this crisis.

The CBP app was intended for travel, port of entry information, for legal foreign travelers and works, those with work or travel visas. Trump terminated it because it was abused by the Biden administration. I will start a thread on this after I do more study on it, I encourage you and others to do the same.

[canpakes]

Is this then requiring 100% of all product and people to be stopped by Mexico alone? Not to be pedantic, but that’s one reading of the language here. Wouldn’t it be more practical to list goals with more specificity as to the process rather than using this sort of childish phrasing? ..."

That is just non-sense. See my last post. If that is how you view politics you must be very disillusioned by all parties and politicians. If you take these kind of statements in a wooden literal sense it is no wonder you are so mixed up.

Ah! Nonsense! Yes, the nonsense of setting tariffs, then declaring “ …This Tariff will remain in effect until such time as Drugs, in particular Fentanyl, and all Illegal Aliens stop this Invasion of our Country!”. The nonsense of not being able to define the criteria for applying or rescinding tariffs with any sort of specificity, while simultaneously (and ironically) not even being able to manipulate basic grammar to make a sentence that doesn’t sound like it was uttered by a new ESL student.

That’s indeed nonsense. You’re catching on.

And would this requirement be the result of the Trump Administration removing valuable resources that could be used to intercept drugs, and having them instead concentrate on rounding up ordinary immigrants who came in via the CBP One app and awaiting their court date, etc.?

No. We are more than capable of multi tasking, we are the greatest country in the world with the greatest economy. We have specific departments to deal with the different issues in our country and world. We have joint task forces where they can join together and share intelligence and resources to combat the different issues that we have to deal with.

rrrRRRRARRGGHH!! We BIG STRONG MURICA! Murica have BIG ECONOMY. RRRGH! Biggest, MOST BESTEST economy! Murica can DO EVERYTHING!
(*DISCLAIMER: America is unable to effectively stem fentanyl abuse, can’t deal with transgender bathrooms, can’t deal with illegal immigrants without demonizing them, and absolutely for sure can’t deal with diversity, equity and inclusion if some white fellow in Arkansas going through his midlife crisis is unable to see that he’s not being hired as the CEO of his local Fortune 500 company because he’s an angry, whiny high-school grad slacker, and not because a black guy, Latino or woman got hired as a [insert any job position] somewhere)

My friend that I have commented about here is in a joint task force with the the county he works for, with the FBI, ICE, DEA and other local and federal departments. They focus on narcotics and gangs in So Ca. And it is only partly funded by the government, it is primarily funded by how much cash they seize. They receive 80% of it for salary and equipment. So if they seize a million dollars in cash they split 800k between the task force. They have quotas to meet, or the program with be terminated. The also get grants from time to time to help.

Sounds like they need the drug trade to thrive, rather than stop, if we consider both their future job security, and what they’re relying on to finance their operating budget. Hmm.

Point being we have specific departments to deal with their respective purposes and different ways to fund them. We are not a third world country, we have the capability to deal with this. If we are giving billions and billions to other countries, we can certainly afford to fund this crisis.

While I appreciate your enthusiasm in trying to convince me that funds are abundant and endless, on the outside chance that they might not be, wouldn’t it be nice to redirect the $80 billion dollars that’s conservatively estimated to be required to deport every 1 million immigrants, instead towards drug interdiction efforts that will, say, take the fentanyl that’s here off of the streets?

The CBP app was intended for travel, port of entry information, for legal foreign travelers and works, those with work or travel visas. Trump terminated it because it was abused by the Biden administration. I will start a thread on this after I do more study on it, I encourage you and others to do the same.

It took the same situation that the Trump Administration experienced - the existence of millions of border crossers seeking asylum (regardless of if you see any one of their claims as valid or not) - and added additional ability to track and process those folks. It was an improvement as opposed to the previous Trump Administration’s approach of chaos. And eliminating CBP One does absolutely nothing to address ‘the fentanyl crisis’. It was eliminated because Trump responds to situations like a child.

[Markk]

Mark: No, we have programs coming out of our ears for any addicted person that wants help. Federal, State, local , and private. But, and this is the reality, like us teaming with Mexico and Canada with a united will, if an addicted person on drugs or alcohol, does not want help, there is nothing we can really do. If you have dealt with addiction or with someone close, you will get that.

cakes: What would be the preferred approach to addicted Americans who “do not want help”? Are mass deportation measures a help to their situation? Asking as these folks seem to represent a good sized chunk of the ‘crisis’ part of a ‘fentanyl crisis’.

If they don't want help there is nothing one can do to help them. You could lock them up and/or counter sedate them with other drugs I suppose, but there is nothing one can do unless they want to help themselves. There are scores of counseling options that can help then want to help themselves, but again they must want the help. Keeping the product away from them might help them want to quit if they are sober long enough to detox, but certainly not a guarantee. in my opinion the more important thing to do is to keep it out of the hands of those not yet addicted, along with education.

Addiction is a disease and a very cruel one, for the person and their families.

Bringing mass deportation into this is just again non-sensical and some sort of fallacy I'm sure.

I am not aware of the percentage of illegal immigrants that are part of the fentanyl epidemic here in the US, it is a good question I have wondered about but have not looked at yet. What data are you basing your assertion off of, CFR please, thanks.

I will say this, that if they are here illegally, and addicted, they should be-returned to their home country for treatment.

I'll ask again the question no one her seems grounded enough in their positions and politics to answer, do you believe that all borders should be wide open, or in other words no more borders.