DEI = Racist

[Chap]

The goal of DEI is not supposed to be greater fairness at the price of lower competence. It's higher competence at the price of having to work with people who look and act differently in ways that are irrelevant to the job. It's supposed to be ruthless meritocracy: ruthless enough to recognize how much pressure it takes to get most people to stop favoring people like themselves even when the likeness has nothing to do with job performance.

Precisely.

[canpakes]

The goal of DEI is not supposed to be greater fairness at the price of lower competence. It's higher competence at the price of having to work with people who look and act differently in ways that are irrelevant to the job. It's supposed to be ruthless meritocracy: ruthless enough to recognize how much pressure it takes to get most people to stop favoring people like themselves even when the likeness has nothing to do with job performance.

Precisely.

And this is not an imagined problem.

From: https://www.forbes.com/sites/janicegass ... g-process/

“A groundbreaking new study by economists Kline, Rose, and Walters reveals what many have known for decades — name bias is still a pervasive issue in the hiring process. The researchers sent out a series of identical resumes to analyze whether race and gender impacted callback rates of job applications at 97 U.S. employers. The study analyzed distinctly “Black” names and “white” names as well as male and female names, among other demographic differences. The results revealed that white and female names received the most callbacks followed by white male names. Black male names and Black female names were called back the least, respectively.

When assessing gender differences, the researchers did not find prominent differences in callback rates between male and female applicants overall—racial differences were more pronounced. Results did vary by industry and firm, with the automobile industry having more pronounced racial differences in callback rates than other industries. The research also revealed that the smallest estimated racial bias was within food stores. The study mirrored many of the same findings of previous studies on name bias and discrimination in hiring.

In a study from over two decades ago, researchers Bertrand and Mullainathan analyzed the callback rates for identical resumes sent out with either Black names or white names in Boston and Chicago. The results of their study provided evidence of pervasive racial discrimination against Black-sounding names during the hiring process. Name bias isn’t just a United States phenomenon. A Swedish study from 2007 found that job applicants with Swedish-sounding names received more callbacks than job applications with Arabic or African-sounding names across different occupations.”

[yellowstone123]

The goal of DEI is not supposed to be greater fairness at the price of lower competence. It's higher competence at the price of having to work with people who look and act differently in ways that are irrelevant to the job. It's supposed to be ruthless meritocracy: ruthless enough to recognize how much pressure it takes to get most people to stop favoring people like themselves even when the likeness has nothing to do with job performance.

Precisely.

Sorry that people work in such situations. Utah is the wrong place to take a sample and make inferences.

Where I spent my career, which was in Southern California, the majority of my coworkers were not white males. They were Black, Hispanic, Asian, Persian, Arab. They were married, single, gay, straight. They were great at the job and why wouldn't they be, and I was very lucky to work with them. So my experience is different. Of all the years I spent at my job, I can't think of a unit of that had more than two white males and there were 12 individuals per unit.

Physics Guy wrote:

It's higher competence at the price of having to work with people who look and act differently in ways that are irrelevant to the job.

I'm not sure what you mean "think differently" when it comes to public safety. You follow the policy and the law. It's meant to save lives. If you are a Rambo type character then go find another job. Everyone in Southern California looks differently but thinking differently can be dangerous. All the people that I worked with didn't look like me but we all thought pretty similar on how to assess a situation due to our training. Do you want an Air Traffic Controller to think differently. I'm sure you do not.

Maybe you are thinking of the L.A. Fire DEI Chief who said something like if the chief responded to a house on fire and had to go rescue someone then the person inside got themselves in the wrong situation.

[Morley]

Utah is the wrong place to take a sample and make inferences.

I assume you’re responding to me. That’s quite a casual dismissal of my pretty specific case. Change religion for ethnicity and Utah for any number of locations, and this kind of thing happens all the time.

Where I spent my career, which was in Southern California, the majority of my coworkers were not white males. They were Black, Hispanic, Asian, Persian, Arab. They were married, single, gay, straight. They were great at the job and why wouldn't they be, and I was very lucky to work with them. So my experience is different. Of all the years I spent at my job, I can't think of a unit of that had more than two white males and there were 12 individuals per unit.

I’m encouraged to read that your experience with diversity hiring there in Southern California has been so positive!

[yellowstone123]

Utah is the wrong place to take a sample and make inferences.

I assume you’re responding to me. That’s quite a casual dismissal of my pretty specific case. Change religion for ethnicity and Utah for any number of locations, and this kind of thing happens all the time.

Where I spent my career, which was in Southern California, the majority of my coworkers were not white males. They were Black, Hispanic, Asian, Persian, Arab. They were married, single, gay, straight. They were great at the job and why wouldn't they be, and I was very lucky to work with them. So my experience is different. Of all the years I spent at my job, I can't think of a unit of that had more than two white males and there were 12 individuals per unit.

I’m encouraged to read that your experience with DEI hiring there in Southern California has been so positive!

1) please give the religion and location and what happens all the time;

2) There was no DEI when I or any of my coworkers were hired. There was affirmative action but we didn’t need affirmative action to get our teams.

3) I forgot to mention that I don’t think that those who can’t hack the classroom so they jump into administrative roles are those we needed to emulate. Some of my friends who I’ve known since childhood taught in the classroom for thirty years. They are the winners, not administrators.

[Morley]

1) please give the religion and location and what happens all the time;

Huh? Give what religion? No sure what you're saying.

Anyway, why would I give another example? You didn't respond to my first one.

2) There was no DEI when I or any of my coworkers were hired. There was affirmative action but we didn’t need affirmative action to get our teams.

You're right of course, which is why I'd changed my term to "diversity hire." As I say, I'm happy the practice worked for you.

3) I forgot to mention that I don’t think that those who can’t hack the classroom so they jump into administrative roles are those we needed to emulate. Some of my friends who I’ve known since childhood taught in the classroom for thirty years. They are the winners, not administrators.

I agree. But what on Earth does that have to do with my example?

Maybe you are thinking of the L.A. Fire DEI Chief who said something like if the chief responded to a house on fire and had to go rescue someone then the person inside got themselves in the wrong situation.

What makes you think that she was a DEI hire?

[Morley]

There was no DEI when I or any of my coworkers were hired. There was affirmative action but we didn’t need affirmative action to get our teams.

You seem to be saying that you don't believe that the diverse make-up of your teams had anything to do with the groundwork laid the Civil Rights movement and affirmative action. Do I have that right?

[Morley]

I'm not sure what you mean "think differently" when it comes to public safety. You follow the policy and the law. It's meant to save lives. If you are a Rambo type character then go find another job. Everyone in Southern California looks differently but thinking differently can be dangerous. All the people that I worked with didn't look like me but we all thought pretty similar on how to assess a situation due to our training. Do you want an Air Traffic Controller to think differently. I'm sure you do not.

In the Utah school district example that I cited earlier, the district had continuously gotten into trouble with parents and the courts. The State School Board ordered them to find out why they kept repeating the same mistakes. They consulted with one of the local universities that I was affiliated with. Our team's conclusion was that the district's hiring practices had caused them to see both the teachers and the population they served through too narrow of a lens. The specific recommendations were that the district target the hiring of administrators of those who were out of state, women, and ethnic minorities. It was hoped that, if they did this, it would decalcify some of the inbred opinions and practices that had repeatedly caused them problems. These recommendations had nothing to do with DEI or affirmative action, but were solely concerned with implementing what was considered to be 'best practice' in educational administration.

Having the ability to 'think differently' can make all the difference in the world when you are running either a school or a classroom. It has application in other fields, too.

[yellowstone123]

There was no DEI when I or any of my coworkers were hired. There was affirmative action but we didn’t need affirmative action to get our teams.

You seem to be saying that you don't believe that the diverse make-up of your teams had anything to do with the groundwork laid the Civil Rights movement and affirmative action. Do I have that right?

No, I don’t think it did. Not in Southern California.

In Los Angeles, people chose their field of study in college. If you had certain degrees then you could complete an application for a position in the department. If you didn’t study in the particular field then the person’s application was rejected. A Ph.d in political science or English literature would be rejected. Race had nothing to do with hiring. They wanted certain types of personnel with specific degrees.

As for civil rights, one person I love to read books about is civil rights leader Abraham Joshua Heschel. Please explain how his work in the South affected who was hired in our Department.

I do remember as a kid seeing commercials on tv where people that were black were not allowed to live in certain area and to call a number. That was something I observed.

[yellowstone123]

I'm not sure what you mean "think differently" when it comes to public safety. You follow the policy and the law. It's meant to save lives. If you are a Rambo type character then go find another job. Everyone in Southern California looks differently but thinking differently can be dangerous. All the people that I worked with didn't look like me but we all thought pretty similar on how to assess a situation due to our training. Do you want an Air Traffic Controller to think differently. I'm sure you do not.

In the Utah school district example that I cited earlier, the district had continuously gotten into trouble with parents and the courts. The State School Board ordered them to find out why they kept repeating the same mistakes. They consulted with one of the local universities that I was affiliated with. Our team's conclusion was that the district's hiring practices had caused them to see both the teachers and the population they served through too narrow of a lens. The specific recommendations were that the district target the hiring of administrators of those who were out of state, women, and ethnic minorities. It was hoped that, if they did this, it would decalcify some of the inbred opinions and practices that had repeatedly caused them problems. These recommendations had nothing to do with DEI or affirmative action, but were solely concerned with implementing what was considered to be 'best practice' in educational administration.

Having the ability to 'think differently' can make all the difference in the world when you are running either a school or a classroom. It has application in other fields, too.

Thanks Morley, for this information. It sounds like your teams care a great deal. That’s cool.

For me, I have a big problem with those who jump states for certain positions. Just from experience at my job, there were times when a director was needed because the board of supervisors fired the previous director. After trying this again and again, they finally found a really good person, but what the others tried to implement just created more paper work for us, which made our team less effective in the field.

Just because a person did well in one state or city, doesn’t mean they will do well in Los Angeles. Willie Williams did great in Philadelphia but when he came Los Angeles to work ad police chief for the city, he didn’t do as well. I’ve seen this type of thing over and over. It looks great on paper but likely doesn’t work out in the long run.