The Fentanyl Crisis thread

[Markk]

Cakes:I don’t think the straw man of mass deportations is Chap’s. You keep mentioning it as a tool to fight ‘the fentanyl crisis’, and harping on it in thread after thread.

The straw-man is, Chap: "why we are trying to find solutions to the fentanyl crisis by talking about deportations of illegal immigrants,"

Just because the very very most of illegal immigrants are not mules, does not mean they are here illegally and that there are other issues why they should be deported. That is the straw-man that you and the others are arguing with, thinking it is somehow my sole view of why immigrants should be deported.

Trump is going after the issue in many ways and you just ignore them. by the way another one you can add to my last list is that by designating the cartel as terrorists....he can freeze financial institutions and banks that deal with the cartels. This might be a huge one.

Cakes: Last year, CBP arrested about 3,600 people at the border carrying fentanyl. About 90% of those individuals were American citizens. Using that thing called ‘math’, that would leave about 360 non-citizens caught transporting that drug.

So. And they are not just non-citizens, they are, unless they have a visa or other form of legal documentation to be here, illegal immigrants coming over...illegally.

Do you think we should let people come over illegally?

Cakes...But we’re going to spend 80 billion dollars deporting every 1 million suspected illegal immigrants, none of whom are the 360 folks caught at the border, nor would be trying to go back anywhere near the border.

Again a straw man. But you did call them illegal....Lol I must be getting to you.

And, CFR on how you came up with those costs? How much does it cost in services to keep a million immigrants? Show me the math.

Cakes: Not only would mass deportations be completely ineffective at making a dent in any proclaimed fentanyl crisis, but the money spent on deportations could certainly go a long way if redirected towards the demand side, education efforts or rehabilitation programs.

Again a straw-man that you are arguing with yourself and PG original question. Focus, fentanyl is not the only reason illegal immigrants should be deported.

Cakes: Trump loves his dog and pony shows. But, effective solutions for actual problems faced by real Americans? Not so much.

Such as? He has been effective in the first month in that border crossing are down around 90%. But he is 20K deportations behind Biden in his first 30 day, as compared to Biden in his first month of his last year. Lol that is funny, even you have to laugh at that, after all the bitching and moaning? That is funny. It will be even funnier if Trump doesn't surpass Biden or Obama's, Bush's, or Clintons numbers.


https://www.reuters.com/world/us/Trump- ... 025-02-21/

[Chap]

The straw-man is, Chap: "why we are trying to find solutions to the fentanyl crisis by talking about deportations of illegal immigrants,"

But we are here on the Fentanyl Crisis thread. So if deporting illegal immigrants (which costs money and staff time - it doesn't happen at no cost to the taxpayer) does not make a significant difference to the fentanyl crisis, why are we wasting time talking about it on this thread?.

If you do want to talk about other reasons for organising mass deportations, please start a thread on that subject and do it there.

[Gadianton]

this is one way they can help mass deportation illegal immigrants.

Not true. That's like saying if instead of hoarding all my junk in the garage, I could sell it on eBay to make massive amounts of money. The ability to mike a little bit more does not equate to the ability to make lots more.

Illegal immigrants do not have US citizenship Gad. You might want to read what you wrote and think about the logic, or lack of. Those that came into our country broke and are breaking established laws of the US code.

Neither did the Jews in Germany. It doesn't matter whether citizenship is "revoked" or never existed, a non-citizen is a non-citizen. In the case of the Jews, it was more like, they never had citizenship in the first place because their "blood" -- their lineage was suddenly discovered to not qualify.

But you bring up a good point: suppose the Jews had been there because they migrated there illegally -- in that case, was the holocaust justified? They weren't citizens and they broke the law, so they had no rights, correct?

But I would hope you would just also admit that there should also be an open border and no immigration laws.

of course you hope that because you have no justification for mass deportations. Perhaps you can justify it with a massive false dilemma? Choose between mass deportations or an open border.

Look, Markkk (props to DCP), you're unlikely to justify mass deportations anymore than you can justify keeping LA red-light cams on at all times and sending downtown workers a couple tickets a day. The fact that there are so many illegals is due to a broken system. The fact that they crossed illegally is no more "illegal" than the fact that your boss hired them illegally. The fact that you've trained them and managed them makes you guilty as well. They crossed, you hired, by the powers of supply and demand. The final product, fixing up old buildings, sounds like a good thing to me. You would need to come up with a hidden consequence, perhaps putting a citizen out of work; I don't know, just a suggestion. Maybe they brought over a bunch of fentanyl?

You're also very unlikely to explain to Jersey Girl the logistics of mass deportation. Obama deported 1.5 million over 8 years. Perhaps that comes close to qualifying. But that's nowhere near the 20 million Ceeboo fantasizes about getting out just from Biden's administration alone. How does that happen?

We've already seen lots of human rights violations, the worst being from Trump, but plenty to be had with Clinton and Obama. Fortunately I didn't vote for them or support them. But lets look at your personal playbook, your fantasy, the holocaust. Markkk, you personally face the same problem the Nazi's did with mass deportations. It's difficult to move lots of people out from a country. One problem is that there must be other countries willing to take them. Hitler found out the hard way, not everyone wanted their refugees. It also takes time for courts to make decisions. I mean, we have to determine if, for one, the person is actually here illegally, right? Not that they were just picked up for speaking Spanish under pressure to get the numbers. During that lag they need to be held somewhere. That's a concentration camp. The more getting deported, the bigger the concentration camp operation and the more expensive. Interning massive numbers of people all but guarantees abuse. Not to mention the abuse of being taken from their lives established over years and dumped somewhere with nothing (in proportion to how long they were here).

[Markk]

The straw-man is, Chap: "why we are trying to find solutions to the fentanyl crisis by talking about deportations of illegal immigrants,"

But we are here on the Fentanyl Crisis thread. So if deporting illegal immigrants (which costs money and staff time - it doesn't happen at no cost to the taxpayer) does not make a significant difference to the fentanyl crisis, why are we wasting time talking about it on this thread?.

If you do want to talk about other reasons for organising mass deportations, please start a thread on that subject and do it there.

Lol, because you and the others keep bringing it up?

Go back and read the OP, and then read the first few responses to my OP by Molok and Gad, then my next two responses....and then cakes OP in this thread.

There is a huge straw-man in the room (that the very most of illegal immigrants have a right to be here ) in this debate with many reoccurring variations of that straw-men, the first was that because there are more American mules, than illegal immigrant mules bringing in cartel drugs, that it somehow justified the current immigration crisis as allowable.

The latest variant-straw-man is that it costs monies and resources to deport people who come to the US illegally, with the implication that we should then just allow it, without discussing one, that they are here illegally and that alone is against immigration law, and two, the other impacts on our country that illegal immigration creates.

I created this thread, and I'll talk about what ever you guys want, as long as it interests me. No one is twisting your arm to be here, and obviously illegal immigration apart from the fentanyl crisis is important, or you guys wouldn't keep bringing it up. And it is interesting and important to me also.

I suggest that you don't worry about the title of the thread, which was blown up in the first few responses, just debate what you believe. No matter what, one can't really isolate the fentanyl issue from the border, illegal immigration, the cartels....etc. It is one huge matrix.

Re-listen, or listen to my OP link, which is actually one of her better speeches in context of the crisis, and that it should be mitigated from every angle.

[canpakes]

But we are here on the Fentanyl Crisis thread. So if deporting illegal immigrants (which costs money and staff time - it doesn't happen at no cost to the taxpayer) does not make a significant difference to the fentanyl crisis, why are we wasting time talking about it on this thread?.

Lol, because you and the others keep bringing it up?

Go back and read the OP, …

Markk, you created this thread, named it ‘The Fentanyl Crisis Thread’, and included a quote from Gad in your OP that focused on mass deportations, to get your case rolling.

[Markk]

Gad: Not true. That's like saying if instead of hoarding all my junk in the garage, I could sell it on eBay to make massive amounts of money. The ability to mike a little bit more does not equate to the ability to make lots more.

That is not even debatable. SB-54 (immigration portion) was created as CA law to do just that, stop ICE from deporting illegal immigration. Good luck with that one.

PROPOSAL:
The California Values Act will provide essential safeguards to ensure that police, schools, health facilities, and courts remain accessible to Californians from all walks of life and that California’s limited resources are directed to matters of greatest concern to state and local governments.

State and local law enforcement agencies and school police and security departments will not engage in immigration enforcement. No state or local resources will be used to investigate, detain, detect, or arrest persons for immigration enforcement purposes. No state or local law enforcement agency will detain or transfer any person for deportation without a judicial warrant.
State agencies will review their confidentiality policies in order to ensure that eligible individuals are not deterred from seeking services or engaging with state agencies. State agencies shall not collect or share information from individuals unless necessary to perform agency duties.
California schools, health facilities, and courthouses will remain safe and accessible to all California residents, regardless of immigration status. Each shall establish and make public policies that limit immigration enforcement on their premises to the fullest extent possible consistent with federal and state law.

https://focus.senate.ca.gov/sites/focus ... /sb54.html

[Markk]

Lol, because you and the others keep bringing it up?

Go back and read the OP, ...

Markk, you created this thread, named it ‘The Fentanyl Crisis Thread’, and included a quote from Gad in your OP that focused on mass deportations, to get your case rolling.

Did you read what I wrote, listen to the Harris speech, and read my question to Gad...which reads..." What is your solution to this epidemic Gad?"

The thread was created to discuss solutions for the epidemic. My hopes were to avoid the back and forth of being accused by some discussing mass deportation, and by others discussing fentanyl all on a 14th amendment based thread. Lol....That went to crap on the first response.

[canpakes]

Markk, you created this thread, named it ‘The Fentanyl Crisis Thread’, and included a quote from Gad in your OP that focused on mass deportations, to get your case rolling.

Did you read what I wrote, listen to the Harris speech, and read my question to Gad...which reads..." What is your solution to this epidemic Gad?"

Do you believe that mass deportations are a financially or medically effective component of tackling ‘the fentanyl crisis’?

[Markk]

Mark wrote:
Illegal immigrants do not have US citizenship Gad. You might want to read what you wrote and think about the logic, or lack of. Those that came into our country broke and are breaking established laws of the US code

.

Gad replied: Neither did the Jews in Germany. It doesn't matter whether citizenship is "revoked" or never existed, a non-citizen is a non-citizen. In the case of the Jews, it was more like, they never had citizenship in the first place because their "blood" -- their lineage was suddenly discovered to not qualify.

Your argument here might be the dumbest argument I have seen on the forum, ever.

The US, whether it be through Obama, Bush, Clinton, Biden, or Trump, are not committing ethnic cleansing. Heck Biden in the first month of his last year deported 20K more illegal immigrants than Trump did in his first 30 days. Are all our presidents Nazi's?

Mexicans, Panamanians, Chinese, European's, Africans, Haitians, Canadians, etc. are on on the list. Folks that come here with extended visa's, or smuggled in. It has nothing to do with "blood."

But you bring up a good point: suppose the Jews had been there because they migrated there illegally -- in that case, was the holocaust justified? They weren't citizens and they broke the law, so they had no rights, correct?

Lol, well, this argument may have just bumped the last one off the dumbest post list Gad.

Hitlers attempted conquest of the world, and the eradication of the Jews, the mentally ill and disabled, Jehovah witness's, homosexuals, and many more if I looked it up. Comparing Trump and the illegal immigration crisis we have today is not remotely comparable. It is just dumb.

[Marcus]

Markk, you created this thread, named it ‘The Fentanyl Crisis Thread’, and included a quote from Gad in your OP that focused on mass deportations, to get your case rolling.

Did you read what I wrote, listen to the Harris speech, and read my question to Gad...which reads..." What is your solution to this epidemic Gad?"

The thread was created to discuss solutions for the epidemic. My hopes were to avoid the back and forth of being accused by some discussing mass deportation, and by others discussing fentanyl all on a 14th amendment based thread. Lol....That went to crap on the first response.

All the way back from page 4:

Before you bring in a lot of other things to this thread you started specifically about 'the fentanyl crisis,' I was hoping you could respond to this question about the topic:

How does deporting migrants who were NOT involved in the 'trafficking of a drug' assist in fighting the fentanyl crisis?

It doesn't. And I never once said it does.

So, mass deportations are not a solution for the thread topic. The OP has spoken.

Before we leave the topic (again,) however, I'd like to ask a question. Gad reminded me of your work, Markk, do you hire, pay and or in any way use the services of undocumented workers in your business?