The Fentanyl Crisis thread

[Markk]

Did you read what I wrote, listen to the Harris speech, and read my question to Gad...which reads..." What is your solution to this epidemic Gad?"

Do you believe that mass deportations are a financially or medically effective component of tackling ‘the fentanyl crisis’?

As you generally phrase it no. But if we break it down more, such as if the cartel members that are here illegally and networking the fentanyl throughout our nation and to our citizens, yes, if they are part of the deportations, given that the crisis is costing us two trillion +- a year. Do you disagree with that?

Harris states in her speech toward the end we must tackle the issue of Fentanyl from every angle, do yo disagree?

https://youtu.be/1Tqu2ej8ewI?t=232

[canpakes]

Before we leave the topic (again,) however, I'd like to ask a question. Gad reminded me of your work, Markk, do you hire, pay and or in any way use the services of undocumented workers in your business?

In the construction business ..?!?

[canpakes]

Do you believe that mass deportations are a financially or medically effective component of tackling ‘the fentanyl crisis’?

As you generally phrase it no. But if we break it down more, such as if the cartel members that are here illegally and networking the fentanyl throughout our nation and to our citizens, yes, if they are part of the deportations, given that the crisis is costing us two trillion +- a year.

OK, “no but yes” is your answer.

The $2 trillion a year is a bit of a bogus figure (discussed elsewhere), but just for purposes of discussion, how much of that can be eliminated by mass deporting folks who aren’t crossing the border?

[Markk]

Gad wrote: of course you hope that because you have no justification for mass deportations. Perhaps you can justify it with a massive false dilemma? Choose between mass deportations or an open border.

Look, Markkk (props to DCP), you're unlikely to justify mass deportations anymore than you can justify keeping LA red-light cams on at all times and sending downtown workers a couple tickets a day. The fact that there are so many illegals is due to a broken system. The fact that they crossed illegally is no more "illegal" than the fact that your boss hired them illegally. The fact that you've trained them and managed them makes you guilty as well. They crossed, you hired, by the powers of supply and demand. The final product, fixing up old buildings, sounds like a good thing to me. You would need to come up with a hidden consequence, perhaps putting a citizen out of work; I don't know, just a suggestion. Maybe they brought over a bunch of fentanyl?

You're also very unlikely to explain to Jersey Girl the logistics of mass deportation. Obama deported 1.5 million over 8 years. Perhaps that comes close to qualifying. But that's nowhere near the 20 million Ceeboo fantasizes about getting out just from Biden's administration alone. How does that happen?

We've already seen lots of human rights violations, the worst being from Trump, but plenty to be had with Clinton and Obama. Fortunately I didn't vote for them or support them. But lets look at your personal playbook, your fantasy, the holocaust. Markkk, you personally face the same problem the Nazi's did with mass deportations. It's difficult to move lots of people out from a country. One problem is that there must be other countries willing to take them. Hitler found out the hard way, not everyone wanted their refugees. It also takes time for courts to make decisions. I mean, we have to determine if, for one, the person is actually here illegally, right? Not that they were just picked up for speaking Spanish under pressure to get the numbers. During that lag they need to be held somewhere. That's a concentration camp. The more getting deported, the bigger the concentration camp operation and the more expensive. Interning massive numbers of people all but guarantees abuse. Not to mention the abuse of being taken from their lives established over years and dumped somewhere with nothing (in proportion to how long they were here).

The closet thing to Hitler is your unhinged rants. But there are a few points we can mine out here.

Here is a start.

I gather you believe that deporting illegal immigrants is IYO a human rights violation and given that, is our country, and by default or constitution, US laws and codes basically a Nazi nation with Nazi Laws? Is any country that claims souverain rights, and has immigration laws and enforces them Nazi type nations?

Who did you vote for in the two Clinton and Obama races?

[Markk]

As you generally phrase it no. But if we break it down more, such as if the cartel members that are here illegally and networking the fentanyl throughout our nation and to our citizens, yes, if they are part of the deportations, given that the crisis is costing us two trillion +- a year.

OK, “no but yes” is your answer.

The $2 trillion a year is a bit of a bogus figure (discussed elsewhere), but just for purposes of discussion, how much of that can be eliminated by mass deporting folks who aren’t crossing the border?

Answer my question, then I answer yours, remember how it works. I promise I will answer these questions, but lets have a conversation please.

[Markk]

Marcus wrote:
Before we leave the topic (again,) however, I'd like to ask a question. Gad reminded me of your work, Markk, do you hire, pay and or in any way use the services of undocumented workers in your business?

What business are you in?

I am in construction and virtually every larger company in CA that competitively bids work hires illegal immigrants for labor. If they did not, they would not be in business. It is that simple. Cheap labor = bids won. I personally do not, I do not own the company I work for.

We sub contract from the big boys like Turner, or DPR (google them), and their sites are always full of illegal workers....getting low bids from subs is how they compete with each other.

Again what business are you in (or where) in?

[Gadianton]

I gather you believe that deporting illegal immigrants is IYO a human rights violation and given that, is our country, and by default or constitution, US laws and codes basically a Nazi nation with Nazi Laws? Is any country that claims souverain rights, and has immigration laws and enforces them Nazi type nations?

1) There is a proportionality idea in our law that the punishment should fit the crime. A kid brought here by his parents who grows up here, and is now 40, and you're going to say, oops, you're not a citizen, out you go! The adult is shipped back to a country he has no ties to and thrown onto the street to possibly die or suffer greatly. And all because Markk's boss wasn't put in jail for his crime and drew his parents into a honey trap.

2) Mass deportations add another dimension to the problem -- it might not be possible to send large numbers back to their home country immediately, therefore they go to detention centers. lots of people in finite space and a lot of time will lead to all kinds of horrors. The more people and the smaller the space and the longer the time, the greater the horrors.

3) due process adds another dimension -- because it takes time, again, the limited detention resources.

Do you think your boss should go to jail for hiring illegals? Do you think you should go to jail for your part in your company?

If a person has reasonable ties to another country and can be shipped back there with high odds of not suffering tremendously either at the destination or within detention centers on the way, then it's not a human rights violation, obviously. The immigration laws might still be dumb, but in these cases deportation wouldn't be a human rights violation.

by the way, you're an idiot, because I explained all this in the part you quoted already. You don't read people's responses that you quote, you just keep remaking stupid points. Learn to read.

[canpakes]

OK, “no but yes” is your answer.

The $2 trillion a year is a bit of a bogus figure (discussed elsewhere), but just for purposes of discussion, how much of that can be eliminated by mass deporting folks who aren’t crossing the border?

Answer my question, then I answer yours, remember how it works. I promise I will answer these questions, but lets have a conversation please.

There are too many times when I answer your questions, and you (1) ignore the answers and ask the same question later. Or, (2) you simply dodge the question.

Your reply here seems to be the second option.

[Chap]

Do you believe that mass deportations are a financially or medically effective component of tackling ‘the fentanyl crisis’?

As you generally phrase it no.

OK. Mass deportations are not a useful contribution to ending the fentanyl epidemic. If you had a certain sum of money to spend on taking actions that would significantly contribute to ending the fentanyl epidemic, you probably wouldn't choose to devote any of those resources to conducting mass roundups and deportations of illegal immigrants. The return would just not be good enough.

Of course, there might be other good purposes that you might conclude would be contributed to by conducting mass roundups and deportations of illegal immigrants. But ending the fentanyl epidemic would not be one of them. So please can we stop discussing mass deportations on a thread devoted to the fentanyl crisis? Pretty please?

But if we break it down more, such as if the cartel members that are here illegally and networking the fentanyl throughout our nation and to our citizens, yes, if they are part of the deportations, given that the crisis is costing us two trillion +- a year. Do you disagree with that?
[...]

But we have already established, have we not, that the huge majority of fentanyl is brought into the USA by US citizens, i.e. not by illegal immigrants (whether 'cartel members' or not)? If the police identify persons in the USA who are cartel members trafficking fentanyl, deportation is much too light a penalty - they should be serving long jail sentences.

Wait - are you saying that the US should spend very large amounts of money and resources on deporting illegal immigrants, just on the off-chance that a few of those deported might just be fentanyl trafficking cartel members? I find that hard to believe that you could really be advocating such a wasteful use of the tax-payer's money for little return - but if not, I find I find it hard to see what position you are advocating.

[Marcus]

Marcus wrote:
Before we leave the topic (again,) however, I'd like to ask a question. Gad reminded me of your work, Markk, do you hire, pay and or in any way use the services of undocumented workers in your business?

What business are you in?

I am in construction and virtually every larger company in CA that competitively bids work hires illegal immigrants for labor. If they did not, they would not be in business. It is that simple. Cheap labor = bids won. I personally do not, I do not own the company I work for.

We sub contract from the big boys like Turner, or DPR (google them), and their sites are always full of illegal workers....getting low bids from subs is how they compete with each other.

Again what business are you in (or where) in?

Professor. So, every CA company in your industry wouldn't be in business if illegal immigrants were not hired. Gotcha. (which means, I understand.)