Other solutions other than Trump's to Illegal immigration, and the Cartels.

[Markk]

Yes, using construction as a model is you thinking. Using Fentanyl as a model is you blindly following your maniacal political luminaries. This is an improvement.

It took a civil war to end slave ownership. Ending illegal immigration won't happen without significantly penalizing employers and even then I'm not sure. Whether illegal immigration for work even counts as a problem depends on whether you a) believe in free markets or b) believe in socialism. If you wish to announce MAGA as socialist, then I agree with you in principle that illegal immigration could be a problem. Actually, we need be careful about terminology as we're taking the cart before the horse. Immigration is a concern for a social-welfare state. Care must be taken to ensure that the benefit of the immigrants don't outweigh the cost of providing them with the lavish social benefits citizens enjoy. This is where, as central planners, we sit down and calculate how many immigrants we should let in and then draw a line. On purpose, we are causing shortages. Employers will want cheap labor, and cheap labor will want employers, and the law must brutally stop supply and demand from meeting, with the greater harshness on the demand side (employers).

One of the effects of making immigration illegal in the first place is the resulting black markets. Many of the bad things that go along with illegal immigration happen simply because it was made illegal, and the tremendous forces of supply and demand are pulling towards each other. Think about prohibition.

An open border is an extension of the self-regulating market that Adam Smith described. I believe in a radical version of free-markets called rational expectations. In that theory, it is exceptionally difficult to beat market forces by policy prescriptions. Cheap labor undercutting good gigs by workers is a reality of a functioning free market. Innovation should ensure other work opportunities. By giving your workers higher wages, the cost to build a house goes up, and your workers still won't be able to afford a house. The US was built on completely open and cut-throat immigration and competition. To say a policy maker knows exactly where to draw the line in history and say -- whoah! enough is enough, no more immigrants! is absurd.

The border is open in the other direction. More Americans are moving to Mexico than Mexicans are moving to America. If America is too expensive, there are options here. Catastrophic inflation and the problem with housing is not an easy problem to untangle. I've been dipping my toes into the problem, but I don't have any great explanation nor easy fixes. I can guarantee you that Donald Trump has no freaking clue, and all your outrage policies will just make things worse in the short-run and long-run for the average American. Perhaps they will deserve it for trying to fix their problems by inhumane policies like "mass deportations".

So you have no real solutions? Just that Trump's does not have a clue. Noted.

Okay you are president Gad (or Marcus, or Cakes, or anyone else), you just got elected with the same conditions we face today, which Trump is facing. Lets limit it for now to the southern border. What are your first moves in regard to executive decisions and policy, starting with these seven realties? Lets go one at a time.

1. Cartel Human Trafficking across the border
2. Cartel Drug production
3. Cartel smuggling drugs across the border (all means and methods)
4. Cartel networks in the US distributing drugs
5. Illegal immigrants here with criminal records from their countries
6. Illegal Immigrants here that commit crimes
7. Illegal immigrants here that are in gangs.

[Gadianton]

How was it again that Trump's mass deportation of working illegals not in gangs, without criminal records and who aren't smuggling drugs, a solution to drug smuggling gangs criminality in general?

Markk has lost the small amount of momentum he had and is back at square one. I will gladly answer the questions if Markk can explain how mass deportation of working illegals not involved in drugs and crime will solve any problems related to drugs and crime.

[Chap]

Am I right to assume that the mention of 'the cartels' in the thread title means the topics of this thread include the fentanyl crisis? I mean, fentanyl is what cartels mostly deal in at present, right?

If so, we have another thread on which discussion of the topics of

(a) illegal immigration

and

(b) the fentanyl crisis

will be as confusingly mixed together as they were on the other thread. Why is that a good idea?

[Markk]

How was it again that Trump's mass deportation of working illegals not in gangs, without criminal records and who aren't smuggling drugs, a solution to drug smuggling gangs criminality in general?

Markk has lost the small amount of momentum he had and is back at square one. I will gladly answer the questions if Markk can explain how mass deportation of working illegals not involved in drugs and crime will solve any problems related to drugs and crime.

Lol, I already said that it wouldn't .... I think two or three times : The Fentanyl Crisis thread :Post by Markk » Sat Feb 15, 2025 5:34 pm

Marcus wrote, Parroting Gad:
How does deporting migrants who were NOT involved in the 'trafficking of a drug' assist in fighting the fentanyl crisis?

Markk: It doesn't. And I never once said it does. I suggested you go back and read the other thread, but it seems you aren't willing to do that. Out of this post, was my first mention of it in the other thread, the strawman that you are now arguing against, was from.

So please address my questions.

[Markk]

Am I right to assume that the mention of 'the cartels' in the thread title means the topics of this thread include the fentanyl crisis? I mean, fentanyl is what cartels mostly deal in at present, right?

If so, we have another thread on which discussion of the topics of

(a) illegal immigration

and

(b) the fentanyl crisis

will be as confusingly mixed together as they were on the other thread. Why is that a good idea?

Should we have just one topic on DCP, Trump, and Mormonism? Stop looking for excuses.

[Chap]

[...] we have another thread on which discussion of the topics of

(a) illegal immigration

and

(b) the fentanyl crisis

will be as confusingly mixed together as they were on the other thread. Why is that a good idea?

To which the reply is in two parts:

1.

Should we have just one topic on DCP, Trump, and Mormonism?

2.

Stop looking for excuses.

Not very helpful. I just want to know what the point of this thread is, since another one apparently covering just the same topics exists. Seems a reasonable question.

[Gadianton]

Markk,

Good lord, you quote me talking about the housing crisis and the economics surrounding non-criminal illegal immigration and how free-enterprise vs. socialist economies would approach things differently, and when I say I have no solutions, you re-frame the conversation to be about the cartel and criminal illegals. what is your problem, dude?

As for just the criminal stuff, well, prosecuting illegal criminals and deporting them is fine. Trump isn't the first to do it, he's not doing any more of it than others have. He's just wasting money deporting people with nothing to do with the problem and scapegoating them as the cause. And getting an army of stupid and brainwashed so-called Christians to back him up.

Here's your solution, Markk, assuming I were a dictator, which is how you imagine Trump:

The problem is halfway solved already given Fentanyl has overtaken the market and is a synthetic drug. You don't need a tropical environment and a complex operation of plant growing and harvesting like with cocaine. Just like an oil cartel, you beat a drug cartel by underselling it. Fentanyl, first off, will be banned entirely for medical use -- doctors can prescribe something else. Then, in a secret operation, the government will create fentanyl of the highest quality and perfectly measured and offer increasingly better prices, and become the premiere supplier. They will need to go this route to perfectly learn the entire network and make sure to find all the nooks and crannies and take over the whole thing. At the same time, the idea is to avoid new users, it will happen, but I don't agree with lemonade stands or get it from the pharmacy. It needs to organically get to the entire user base as it is, and in their mode of obtaining it -- it can't feel "unnatural" to the users. Once the old suppliers are out of business, we have options.

I'm going to forgo speculation on the next steps, since you only asked about breaking the cartel supply infringements on the country, which is taken care of at this point. If the cartel tries to shift to cocaine, something they can produce better, then we buy or seize cocaine, lace it with fentanyl, and get the consumers hooked on our stuff; the strongest stuff there is.

[Markk]

[...] we have another thread on which discussion of the topics of

(a) illegal immigration

and

(b) the fentanyl crisis

will be as confusingly mixed together as they were on the other thread. Why is that a good idea?

To which the reply is in two parts:

1.

Should we have just one topic on DCP, Trump, and Mormonism?

2.

Stop looking for excuses.

Not very helpful. I just want to know what the point of this thread is, since another one apparently covering just the same topics exists. Seems a reasonable question.

No this thread is specific to immigration solutions that are opposed to Trump's. Read the OP. One of the other ones, which is derailed, is about fentanyl alone, or was supposed to be. The other about the 14th amendment, which was also derailed, just as this is doomed to be. You can help get it on track and offer you solutions per the OP, that would be great.

[huckelberry]

So you have no real solutions? Just that Trump's does not have a clue. Noted.

Okay you are president Gad (or Marcus, or Cakes, or anyone else), you just got elected with the same conditions we face today, which Trump is facing. Lets limit it for now to the southern border. What are your first moves in regard to executive decisions and policy, starting with these seven realties? Lets go one at a time.

1. Cartel Human Trafficking across the border
2. Cartel Drug production
3. Cartel smuggling drugs across the border (all means and methods)
4. Cartel networks in the US distributing drugs
5. Illegal immigrants here with criminal records from their countries
6. Illegal Immigrants here that commit crimes
7. Illegal immigrants here that are in gangs.

Increased border protection, people, and electronic surveillance for 1 through 4. Individuals in 5, 6, and 7 should be deported.

I think as importantly the legal staff to judge refugee status should be increased to make such decisions expeditious. People not qualifying should be sent back not left to wander about. I think some legal clarification of qualifying would likely be a help.

I think there was a bill to go at least part way on this that I understand Trump asked to be killed so he could do something.

[Markk]

Gad: good lord, you quote me talking about the housing crisis and the economics surrounding non-criminal illegal immigration and how free-enterprise vs. socialist economies would approach things differently, and when I say I have no solutions, you re-frame the conversation to be about the cartel and criminal illegals. what is your problem, dude?

Lol....you claimed, and often do that Trump does not have a clue how to handle the Immigration crisis, unless you are now saying he has a clue? Your post was generally about open border policy and issues.

This is just another excuse for you to discuss and back up what you believe and just continue with identity politics.

You said if I answered your question, which I showed you I did, you would address my questions. Let's see what you got.

My first question is about human trafficking by the Cartel coming across the border....

Your answer was:

Here's your solution, Markk, assuming I were a dictator, which is how you imagine Trump:

Gad: The problem is halfway solved already given Fentanyl has overtaken the market and is a synthetic drug. You don't need a tropical environment and a complex operation of plant growing and harvesting like with cocaine. Just like an oil cartel, you beat a drug cartel by underselling it. Fentanyl, first off, will be banned entirely for medical use -- doctors can prescribe something else. Then, in a secret operation, the government will create fentanyl of the highest quality and perfectly measured and offer increasingly better prices, and become the premiere supplier. They will need to go this route to perfectly learn the entire network and make sure to find all the nooks and crannies and take over the whole thing. At the same time, the idea is to avoid new users, it will happen, but I don't agree with lemonade stands or get it from the pharmacy. It needs to organically get to the entire user base as it is, and in their mode of obtaining it -- it can't feel "unnatural" to the users. Once the old suppliers are out of business, we have options.

How does that address the 1st question? Lol, that is certainly interesting. It is a keeper for sure. I would love to here Cakes and the others comment on this.

I'm going to forgo speculation on the next steps, since you only asked about breaking the cartel supply infringements on the country, which is taken care of at this point. If the cartel tries to shift to cocaine, something they can produce better, then we buy or seize cocaine, lace it with fentanyl, and get the consumers hooked on our stuff; the strongest stuff there is.

My first question was about Human Trafficking and smuggling by the Cartels, it had nothing to do with drugs. The question about drugs being smuggled over is question #3. If I was not clear I apologize. It should be clearer now with the link I gave below.

Chief Patrol Agent John Modlin, Tucson Sector

Q: And turning briefly to human smugglings, you said earlier that cartels are responsible for the majority of human smuggling that you see in your sector. Is that correct?

A: So—yeah. So if someone’s being smuggled, they’re using a criminal organization. So what’s interesting about the border certainly that has changed significantly, when I started—you know, when I started in ’95, people could just get to the border and cross on their own.

You know, now nobody crosses without paying the cartels. So the cartels, you know, determine when people cross, you know, how many people cross at a time, all of that. It’s all—it’s all controlled by them.

https://homeland.house.gov/2023/12/14/n ... st-border/

Can you address this question? If you were president, not a dictator, how would you mitigate the smuggling of people by the Cartels across the border?