The non-coin coin system of the Book of Mormon. Scam?

[malkie]

Perhaps Church leaders were bullied into hiding the coin by the Mopologists? If the coin was found in Georgia, that would seem to point to a Heartland Theory of the Book of Mormon's location....

Moroni dropped it by accident on his wanderings from the Book of Mormon lands to New York.

Problem solved!

[Shulem]

Moroni dropped it by accident on his wanderings from the Book of Mormon lands to New York.

Problem solved!

You're getting warmer.

[Brack]

Here is what the LDS Apologist Daniel C. Peterson has stated on this topic.

It is, alas, quite true that there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of Book of Mormon coins. Not even in the Book of Mormon itself. The text of the Book of Mormon never mentions the word "coin" or any variant of it. The reference to "Nephite coinage" in the chapter heading to Alma 11 is not part of the original text, and is mistaken. Alma 11 is almost certainly talking about standardized weights of metal a historical step toward coinage, but not yet the real thing. - Link

While the words "coin" and "coins" aren't actually mentioned within the Book of Mormon text, the phrase "the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver," is mentioned within the text. (See Alma 11:4) The text implies it is talking about coinage.

The LDS Apologist Daniel Peterson also quoted from the 1984 NIV Bible from that linked FARMS review. The 1984 NIV Bible translated "pieces of silver" within Matthew Chapters 26 and 27 as silver coins.
https://archive.org/details/TheHolyBibl ... 0/mode/1up

[Shulem]

While the words "coin" and "coins" aren't actually mentioned within the Book of Mormon text, the phrase "the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver," is mentioned within the text. (See Alma 11:4) The text implies it is talking about coinage.

Indeed, all coins must have the following characteristics in order to achieve "their reckoning":

• names

• pieces

• value

Now these are the NAMES of the different PIECES of their gold, and of their silver, according to their VALUE. And the names are given by the Nephites, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but they altered their reckoning and their measure, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people, in every generation, until the reign of the judges, they having been established by king Mosiah.

What was the definition of a coin in Joseph Smith's day?

COIN, noun Primarily, the die employed for stamping money. Hence,

1. Money stamped; a piece of metal, as gold, silver, copper, or other metal, converted into money, by impressing on it marks, figures or characters. To make good money, these impressions must be made under the authority of government. That which is stamped without authority is called false or counterfeit coin Formerly, all coin was made by hammering; but it is now impressed by a machine or mill.

Current coin is coin legally stamped and circulating in trade.

Ancient coins are chiefly those of the Jews, Greeks and Romans, which are kept in cabinets as curiosities.

The pieces of silver and gold were in circulation as money according to the law which was given and these coins were under government control and law, they having been established by king Mosiah. Coinage or metal bars, whatever their shape, were used to pay debts and wages:

• receive wages according to the time which they labored

• he would not pay that which he did owe

• the man was compelled to pay that which he owed

• that they might get money

Rest assured that Joseph Smith imagined Nephite coins that were cut and stamped to indicate their assigned value.

[Shulem]

And it came to pass that he did teach these things so much that many did believe on his words, even so many that they began to support him and give him money.

Saying unto him: Thou art confederate; who is this man that hath done this murder? Now tell us, and acknowledge thy fault; saying, Behold here is money; and also we will grant unto thee thy life if thou wilt tell us, and acknowledge the agreement which thou hast made with him.

1. Money stamped; a piece of metal, as gold, silver, copper, or other metal, converted into money, by impressing on it marks, figures or characters. To make good money, these impressions must be made under the authority of government.

[Shulem]

Joseph Smith intentionally *changed* the coin to suit the times:

Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine.

A coin is a coin whether in the Bible or the Book of Mormon. It's money!

And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

And a shum of gold was twice the value of a seon.

We are talking about coins, not rocket science!

[Shulem]

Read the following and ask yourself why in the world would Mormon engrave/include this in his abridgment:

It's a good question, and one that I think Shulem is most qualified to answer or speculate on, if he happens upon this thread.

Because the character playing Mormon was really Joseph Smith in disguise. It hardly seems fitting for Smith to narrate his book and not pay regard to the monetary system which plays a vital part in every civilization under the sun. Smith had to visit the topic and must have had fun coming up with fictitious names for his Nephite coins. The coins introduced the story of Zeezrom (six onties of silver) and was likely scribbled on a cheat sheet at the bottom of the hat or memorized prior to dictation.

Mormon Joseph Smith took certain interest in talking about money prior to implementing his grand scheme of forming his own church in the last days:

Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

QUESTION: Archeological proof demands that Nephite coins (money) minted during the time of Mormon surface from slippery treasure discovered among ruins of the ancient Nephite civilization. But there are none; just as there is no king's name in Facsimile No. 3! Smith made up fictitious names for his coins, so also he hacked off the nose and headcloth of Anubis on the lead plate.

I so testify.

[Gabriel]

Joseph Smith intentionally *changed* the coin to suit the times:

Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost senine.

Farthing is a linguistic shift from the word “Fourthing” -- meaning “a fourth part.” For example, the four regions of the Shire are called Farthings. Likewise, our American quarter could be called a farthing of a dollar. In Hebrew coinage 4 drachms = 1 shekel; in that sense, a drachm is a farthing. The poor widow’s two mites are equal to one drachm (or farthing).

When consulting all the major English translations of Matthew 5:26, we find that it is implied that the incarcerated will not be released until they have paid every last penny of what they owe. (https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%205%3A26). In other words: If one owes a theoretical $100 to the Judge, he will not be satisfied if you can only scrounge up 99 dollars and 99 cents. He wants that last penny. And, as I learned from Gadianton a year or two ago: There is no loose change on the floor [which to me was an epiphany of Archimedean proportions -- but I digress]

In the Book of Mormon we read:

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost SENINE.

In my opinion, this value is too high to represent the idea of "every last penny". According to Joseph Smith’s own table of Nephite money, a Senine is equal to one full measure of grain. A quarter (or farthing) of this value is called a Shiblum (worth a quarter measure of grain). So, instead of mites, our poor Nephite widow would be tossing two Leahs in the temple offertory. (Two Leahs are equal to one Shiblum -- or farthing.)

Thus, I believe that it would be more accurate if the Book of Mormon verse were changed to read:

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence until thou hast paid the uttermost SHIBLUM.

[Gadianton]

Thanks to both Gabrial and Shulem for the fascinating contributions. The testimonies of the lurkers must be in shambles given that MG is too busy trading barbs on the other thread rather than correcting the misinformation from the rest of us on this thread. Oh, also Brack who gave the full Peterson quotes; his weight argument is important.

From Gabrial:

Two bekas made a shekel.............
Sixty shekels made a mina...........
Fifty minas made a talent...........

More proof that the Nephites had coins as medium of exchange, rather than the weight and unit of account system that existed in 600 BC. Peterson sells it as a sophisticated weight system. What's striking in the Bible quote is the scale. A talent is 3,000 shekels. As a weight system, the Nephite system is wholly inadequate. How would you ever facilitate a large transaction?

Rome had the Areus, which was 25 Denarii, which is 16 Assarion, which is 4 Quadrans. That's pretty good coverage for coins, but Rome also fell back to weights, even the talent, for large transactions. (6,000 denarii)

As a system of weights, the largest weight is 7 (onti) x 8 (lowest is 1/8) = 56 times the smallest weight. There's just no way. As a coinage system it does the job, covering about the same scale as Roman currency (64x) without the Areus, which was a special coin anyway. It was obviously intended to be a coin system.

And unbelievably, I stumbled across this by accident a few minutes ago, proving myself (partially) right on one point:

The central unit of exchange is the senum of silver, which just happens to be the exact pay of a judge for a day's work. Normally, you'd start with a laborer's pay as a round unit, and that would fluctuate, but the pay of officials would be some weird multiple of that and fluctuate much more over time

He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

It's worse than I thought as judges weren't paid professions back then. Okay, maybe they were for the Nephites, but it's an obvious case of self-selection to make senum equivalent the pay of a judge rather than a laborer.

Not going to get to Shulem's stuff tonight. Yeah, that description of a real weight system from the Bible proves definitively that the Book of Mormon system is a coin system. (definitively falsifying Dan's argument. Though I give Dan credit because he knew it was the only way out)

[Gabriel]

Thanks to both Gabrial and Shulem for the fascinating contributions. The testimonies of the lurkers must be in shambles given that MG is too busy trading barbs on the other thread rather than correcting the misinformation from the rest of us on this thread. Oh, also Brack who gave the full Peterson quotes; his weight argument is important.

From Gabrial:

Two bekas made a shekel.............
Sixty shekels made a mina...........
Fifty minas made a talent...........

More proof that the Nephites had coins as medium of exchange, rather than the weight and unit of account system that existed in 600 BC. Peterson sells it as a sophisticated weight system. What's striking in the Bible quote is the scale. A talent is 3,000 shekels. As a weight system, the Nephite system is wholly inadequate. How would you ever facilitate a large transaction?

Rome had the Areus, which was 25 Denarii, which is 16 Assarion, which is 4 Quadrans. That's pretty good coverage for coins, but Rome also fell back to weights, even the talent, for large transactions. (6,000 denarii)

As a system of weights, the largest weight is 7 (onti) x 8 (lowest is 1/8) = 56 times the smallest weight. There's just no way. As a coinage system it does the job, covering about the same scale as Roman currency (64x) without the Areus, which was a special coin anyway. It was obviously intended to be a coin system.

And unbelievably, I stumbled across this by accident a few minutes ago, proving myself (partially) right on one point:

The central unit of exchange is the senum of silver, which just happens to be the exact pay of a judge for a day's work. Normally, you'd start with a laborer's pay as a round unit, and that would fluctuate, but the pay of officials would be some weird multiple of that and fluctuate much more over time

He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

It's worse than I thought as judges weren't paid professions back then. Okay, maybe they were for the Nephites, but it's an obvious case of self-selection to make senum equivalent the pay of a judge rather than a laborer.

Not going to get to Shulem's stuff tonight. Yeah, that description of a real weight system from the Bible proves definitively that the Book of Mormon system is a coin system. (definitively falsifying Dan's argument. Though I give Dan credit because he knew it was the only way out)

I don't want to bury your lede so I am quoting the entirety of your post, but I do want to add what for me is the most unbelievable part of the entire Nephite money system: What possible reason did they find it necessary to fix it to measures of grain? Of all commodities, crops are certainly one of the most variable. Due to weather conditions, there are always going to be years of dearth and years of plenty. In a relatively free market society, prices would naturally rise and fall accordingly. To keep the same measure of grain fixed to the same price year after year after year would require draconian measures to regulate supply, labor, and distribution -- not to mention the robust police force required to clamp down on any black market activity. And for what purpose? Just to ensure that a measure of grain is sold for a senine and only a senine, and not a penny more or less?