Personally, my North Star that gives my life meaning is a treasure digging 19th century con man. Who cheated on his wife with their teenage nanny, threatened his wife with eternal destruction if she didn’t let him marry 30+ more women, destroyed a printing press, declared himself next to Jesus, and couldn’t remember if he saw 1 or 2 people when he saw God. Also he was a world class translator, but only when using that same treasure digging stone in a hat. He also ran a couple failed bank schemes, which only adds to his magisterial aura.
It’s a very reliable and trustworthy North Star, and I dare anyone to find one that makes more sense. Perhaps a talking goat covered in grape jelly.
May I make a suggestion?
According to the canonical Joseph Smith "story" in the PoGP, Joseph, in his own words, did not say he saw God - only that he saw 2 personages.
He did not identify the personages, and neither of the personages identified themselves, nor the other personage.
It's still possible within Mormon beliefs that the personages were other beings who vaguely hinted at being HF and Jesus (the "my beloved son" part). It's even possible that they were Screwtape and Wormwood! As far as I can see, there is no reason to assume that Joseph Smith saw any personages in particular.
Indeed, the very first 1830 account says it was merely an angel.
"For, after that it truly was manifested unto [Smith] that he had received remission of his sins, he was entangled again in the vanities of the world, but after truly repenting, God visited him by an holy angel ... and gave unto him power, by the means which was before prepared that he should translate a book."
This is why Dan Peterson’s witnesses argument falls so flat. Even Joseph Smith can’t keep his own firsthand account straight.
According to the canonical Joseph Smith "story" in the PoGP, Joseph, in his own words, did not say he saw God - only that he saw 2 personages.
He did not identify the personages, and neither of the personages identified themselves, nor the other personage.
It's still possible within Mormon beliefs that the personages were other beings who vaguely hinted at being HF and Jesus (the "my beloved son" part). It's even possible that they were Screwtape and Wormwood! As far as I can see, there is no reason to assume that Joseph Smith saw any personages in particular.
I too would like to make a suggestion. Check out my Celestial thread The First Vision wherein I detail how and when Smith came up with the idea to claim his First Vision involved two heavenly messengers rather than just one. It wasn't until after Smith acquired the Egyptian papyrus whereon Cowdery noted an illustration presenting the three-in-one Godhead. Smith confessed that in one of his sermons he gave many years later.
Oliver Cowdery, Second Elder of the Church & Assistant to the President, MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE, December 1835 wrote:The evidence is apparent upon the face, that they were written by persons acquainted with the history of the creation, the fall of man, and more or less of the correct ideas of notions of the Deity. The representation of the god-head-three, yet in one, is curiously drawn to give simply, though impressively, the writers views of that exalted personage.
According to the canonical Joseph Smith "story" in the PoGP, Joseph, in his own words, did not say he saw God - only that he saw 2 personages.
He did not identify the personages, and neither of the personages identified themselves, nor the other personage.
It's still possible within Mormon beliefs that the personages were other beings who vaguely hinted at being HF and Jesus (the "my beloved son" part). It's even possible that they were Screwtape and Wormwood! As far as I can see, there is no reason to assume that Joseph Smith saw any personages in particular.
I too would like to make a suggestion. Check out my Celestial thread The First Vision wherein I detail how and when Smith came up with the idea to claim his First Vision involved two heavenly messengers rather than just one. It wasn't until after Smith acquired the Egyptian papyrus whereon Cowdery noted an illustration presenting the three-in-one Godhead. Smith confessed that in one of his sermons he gave many years later.
My point was more about the indeterminate nature of the personages than whether there were 1 or 2.
Missionaries teach (or used to teach) that the FV confirmed that God and Jesus spoke directly to JSJr, and that they were separate beings with physical bodies, but the canonical text does not confirm these three claims at all.
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I too would like to make a suggestion. Check out my Celestial thread The First Vision wherein I detail how and when Smith came up with the idea to claim his First Vision involved two heavenly messengers rather than just one. It wasn't until after Smith acquired the Egyptian papyrus whereon Cowdery noted an illustration presenting the three-in-one Godhead. Smith confessed that in one of his sermons he gave many years later.
My point was more about the indeterminate nature of the personages than whether there were 1 or 2.
Missionaries teach (or used to teach) that the FV confirmed that God and Jesus spoke directly to JSJr, and that they were separate beings with physical bodies, but the canonical text does not confirm these three claims at all.
I think that’s correct malkie. It’s only later explanations that introduce them as HF and JC. I often wondered how it was determined that they had physical bodies, did Joseph shake hands with them or do a quick medical?
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
Oliver Cowdery, Second Elder of the Church & Assistant to the President, MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE, December 1835 wrote:The evidence is apparent upon the face, that they were written by persons acquainted with the history of the creation, the fall of man, and more or less of the correct ideas of notions of the Deity. The representation of the god-head-three, yet in one, is curiously drawn to give simply, though impressively, the writers views of that exalted personage.
Wow, Cowdery was REALLY stretching with that interpretation of nothing more than three people sitting side-by-side.
shulem the magnificent wrote:
It wasn't until after Smith acquired the Egyptian papyrus whereon Cowdery noted an illustration presenting the three-in-one Godhead. Smith confessed that in one of his sermons he gave many years later.
Oliver Cowdery, Second Elder of the Church & Assistant to the President, MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE, December 1835 wrote:The evidence is apparent upon the face, that they were written by persons acquainted with the history of the creation, the fall of man, and more or less of the correct ideas of notions of the Deity. The representation of the god-head-three, yet in one, is curiously drawn to give simply, though impressively, the writers views of that exalted personage.
I learn something new every day here. Thank you Shulem. I didn't know this, and its a pretty damning piece of evidence.
shulem the magnificent wrote:It wasn't until after Smith acquired the Egyptian papyrus whereon Cowdery noted an illustration presenting the three-in-one Godhead. Smith confessed that in one of his sermons he gave many years later.
I learn something new every day here. Thank you Shulem. I didn't know this, and its a pretty damning piece of evidence.
Fantastic! I do hope you get a chance to peruse the First Vision thread in the link above. If you see something out of order or have a question, do let me know. I see it as a bullseye aimed at the very heart of Mormonism. It's ironic how the 1832 First Vision account reveals what Smith actually believed regarding the nature of God rather than the 1838 embellished account of adding a second Person having his own body.
Wow, Cowdery was REALLY stretching with that interpretation of nothing more than three people sitting side-by-side.
Cowdery was Smith's right arm and his spokesman. He got his information directly from the prophet. He was literally the messenger and as such published Joseph's messages in the MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE. Statements therein about the iconographic representations of the vignettes is just as wrong as everything else said regarding the two rolls (Abraham & Joseph) and what the hieroglyphic text actually says.
