"Could you kindly reskewer?"

[drumdude]

On the point about enduring Daniel’s posting… I have to point out that the majority of the comments on SeN these days are John Pack Lambert’s ramblings that he isn’t allowed to post on Wikipedia due to lack of noteworthiness. These ramblings are usually completely unrelated to Dan’s blog entries.

Noel’s posts are regularly attacked for being off topic but John’s ramblings are always allowed to stand. They pad the numbers, I suppose. Add a couple extra dollars to Daniel’s monthly Patheos cheques.

I think that DCP likes the discussion but too many free thinking comments or comments that go against the church will open him up to judgement in that by allowing them to stay he is allowing church members to see "antimormon" information and opening that door to members thinking. I think a TBM, good standing member of the church would feel the unspoken pressure to do what is right by the church regardless of their interest.

I hope that makes sense.

I think that’s correct. John Pack Lambert’s is on DCP’s “team” and gets a pass.

[Philo Sofee]

Funny, I was going to quote the same section Drumdude did.

I also didn't realize he had been banned for good. It's incredible that a message board like Sic Et Non demands its members to eventually convert to their beliefs or be banished. Gemli for the apologists and their way of thinking is similar to MG on this board, and our general way of thinking. He's never going to become a rational participant from my perspective, at least, but I wouldn't dream of banning him. He's free to post to his hearts content what he believes and is under no pressure to "learn" from anyone here.

The thing is, without opposing sides there is no discussion, no debate. It's the opposition that allows us to dissect and dig deep. If everyone just agreed, there would be no thinking deeply. The discussion would be finished very quickly. I think one of the great things about being human is that we can discuss, philosophise, debate and push each others to new ideas.

At least here. NEVER over on Dan's site. You agree, or get banned.

[drumdude]

This is the JPL spam just from yesterday’s post alone:

John Pack Lambert John Pack Lambert
12 hours ago

I have gotten to "Stay Thou Nearby" where Elder Corbitt speaks against activism to try to change The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This he has said elsewhere, and been hated by some for saying.

He says of trying to use activisn to change the Church "this approach deceives Church members into seeing themselves as holding apostles and prophets "accoubtable" and directing worldly tactics of secular activism against the Lord's own Church and its leaders. This obviously sets them up as critics of these leaders and subtly pits them against the Lord's anointed. However, it deceptively does so in a way that tricks such members into feeling noble and part of a righteous cause". Here he has footnote 54, his last. The other 3 writers of the book have 14 footnotes combined. Footnote 54 is actually a link to his October 2022 address to Church endorsed chaplains "Activism v. Discipleship".

Elder Corbitt then continues "In my early youth [Elder Corbitt was baptized on his 18th birthday in 1980, and I think first met missionaries less than a year earlier, his mom and some siblings were baptized before him, his Dad was baptized a year later, there were 10 children, the 3 youngest were baptized at age 8, his oldest brother was baptized in 1994. Early youth might not be the phrase some would chose for a 17, 18 or slightly older person, but at 61 or so [he is 62 now, but this was written a year ago or a little more] I can see it as the term one would use] as I learned about prophets, seers and revelatory and accepted them as living prophets, I never could have anticipated that I would one day receive a telephone call from one of them and actually discuss revelation with one of them." He then tells of a June 2012 experience. Elder Perry called him. At the time Elder Corbitt was writing the early version of this essay published with the Race and the Priesthood gospel topic essay in 2013 (it was a shorter version). That was not why Elder Perry called Elder Corbitt, it was a call related to Elder Corbitt overseeing public and government relations in New York. Elder Perry had lived in New York, he was very involved with the Church Pavillion at the 1964 World's Fair. During this conversation though Elder Corbitt asked Elder Perry about his experience in receiving official declaration 2. Elder Perry said that that experience was the "most significant and spiritual" experience he ever had at the Apostle's and First Presidency's Thursday Temple meeting.

John Pack Lambert John Pack Lambert
12 hours ago

In his section Elder Dube not only recounts his experience learning about the priesthood restriction but also tells of others learning of it. One is Raymond Egbo, who he identifies as an Atea Seventy. Elder Egbo was called as a general authority in April 2024, I Bieber he gave the talk right before President Nelson in October. I know for sure Elder Egbo spoke, exactly when I in October conference I might be misremembering.

John Pack Lambert John Pack Lambert
12 hours ago

Elder Dube also speaks of Elder Sitati. He mentions he has known Elder Sitati since thry were both district presidents, before either of their countries had stakes. He mentions things said by Elder Sitati at the October 9, 2015 Black, White and Latter-day Saint conference at the University of Utah

John Pack Lambert John Pack Lambert
12 hours ago

The most interesting statement Elder Corbitt makes is "I know the First Presidency and the Quorum of the 12 Apostles received a Revelation from the Lord in June of 1978. At that time, I felt it without even realizing it'. Early he tells of how the Lord moved upon him in the summer of 1978. He would not meet the missionaries until later, and it was over 2 years from the Revelation until his baptism but the Lord was already moving on him.

John Pack Lambert John Pack Lambert
12 hours ago

Elder Dube also tells of Joel Chibota's experience as a student at BYU-Hawaii in 1978. One of the other students said that the priesthood was withheld from blacks because thry were cursed and the curse was lifted in 1978. This is not doctrinal sound. We do not know of why the priesthood was withheld (as Elder Corbitt summarizes it we know not who sinned and we err in assuming it was caused by sin, the same as the disciples did in analyzing the state of the man born blind, we may also err in considering the options of who did sin, but we do not know). Hearing this was a hurting experience for Brother Chibota but he drew on his existing testimony to move forward.

John Pack Lambert John Pack Lambert
12 hours ago

Joel Chibota is a native of what is now Zimbabwe (it was white minority ruled Rhodesia when he was born). He is the current president of the Alabama Birmingham Mission.


John Pack Lambert John Pack Lambert
12 hours ago
The upshot of that encounter is that Joel Chibota resolved yo never let anyone derail his testimony. It is unfortunate that members were speaking such falsehoods in 1990.

John Pack Lambert John Pack Lambert
11 hours ago
Rose and Joel Chibota are from Zimbabwe. However they were called as mission leaders from Salt Lake City. Elder Dube summarizes what lead to this by saying "later during the Zimbabwe economic meltdown, Joel and Rose moved to Salt Lake City to seek further education and opportunities."

Quoted here since I’m sure Dan just skips over it. Dan certainly doesn’t respond to the majority (or really any) of JPL’s lovely additions to his little online abode.

Trading Gemli for JPL sure made Dan’s blog a lot more boring.

[I Have Questions]

To be fair, JPL's comments will make it seem to the Patheos analysis bot that Peterson's blog is receiving some comments. It probably won't differentiate between multiple commenters and a solitary prolific commenter. Peterson ignores JPL. That should tell JPL something...

[Physics Guy]

I didn't read so many of gemli's comments, but in fairness to Peterson, my impression was that gemli didn't make much effort to follow other people's arguments and thresh out parts that were sound and parts with which he disagreed, and clearly say why he disagreed with them, in their own language. He did have a lot of good lines of his own, but he seemed to do a lot of just repeating his own lines and expecting other people to do all the work of addressing them, as if he were right by default and didn't need to think about anyone else's position unless and until they had refuted his own—to his own satisfaction. Even if someone were right about everything, that would make them a tedious conversation partner.

I can understand anyone being reluctant to get down into the mud of Mormon apologetics, which can often be hard to take seriously if you were never a Mormon. I mean, it can just be hard to keep a straight face with some of their arguments, or to bite one's tongue as they keep on admiring their founding sexual predator.

If you can't actually discuss with these people, though, why keep on posting comments on one of their blogs? gemli seemed like a Quixote who didn't even really tilt at the windmills, but just kept on riding up to them to deliver a challenge and then riding away.

[Gadianton]

You're absolutely right about that, but I think in your general good will you're missing that this is the very reason why he's survived as long as he has. Gemli sees no reason to dig into details, he argues by analogy because all religions ultimately boil down to the same kind of magical thinking and cons. If he takes the next six months to study the witnesses and then comes back to the comments section with real knowledge of the details and continues with more pointed one-liners applicable to specifically Mormon things, then he won't last a day.

Gemli has been SeN's trophy, their DEI participant to show that free speech is allowed and they aren't afraid of atheism and criticism. But that's only worked because it's not personal. Gemli isn't ex-Mormon or EV and his arguments skewer belief in a way that, in DCP's mind, is more applicable to other versions of Christianity. So while annoying for Dan, it's not outright offensive. But he could fix that problem by becoming educated in Mormon specifics, and then returning to roast Mormonism with his razor sharp wit on topics of polygamy and the plates that he now no longer displays ignorance on.

[Marcus]

I took gemli's approach as a continuation of his other comments in other venues, which, as far as I read, was a comment responding to the article, not necessarily other commenters. He always responded to DCP, and one of the few other commenters I saw him engage with any sort of regularity was Midgley.

Midgley always gave gemli great openings with his over the top offensiveness, his constant fishing for in real life content (and then using it as obnoxiously as possible) and of course the weird third person style he would dip into when particularly offended. Given how many times I've had to bite my tongue in order to keep the peace when family members have acted similarly, gemli's humorous but skewering responses provided some much needed comic relief.

As for being repetitive, gemli was indeed absolutely consistent. He never felt obliged to provide evidence when he was responding to the blog's extraordinary claims. As he repeatedly stated, that was the responsibility of the one doing the claiming.

On another note, his last disqus post was on Patheos. I hope he simply changed venues and didn't stop commenting entirely.

[Rivendale]

I took gemli's approach as a continuation of his other comments in other venues, which, as far as I read, was a comment responding to the article, not necessarily other commenters. He always responded to DCP, and one of the few other commenters I saw him engage with any sort of regularity was Midgley.

Midgley always gave gemli great openings with his over the top offensiveness, his constant fishing for in real life content (and then using it as obnoxiously as possible) and of course the weird third person style he would dip into when particularly offended. Given how many times I've had to bite my tongue in order to keep the peace when family members have acted similarly, gemli's humorous but skewering responses provided some much needed comic relief.

As for being repetitive, gemli was indeed absolutely consistent. He never felt obliged to provide evidence when he was responding to the blog's extraordinary claims. As he repeatedly stated, that was the responsibility of the one doing the claiming.

On another note, his last disqus post was on Patheos. I hope he simply changed venues and didn't stop commenting entirely.

I second this. Look at what Mormon apologetics do. They weave intricate excuses for almost every truth claim stated. Gemli merely swatted each one down and generally had enough reason to simply go back to the original statement. That infuriated them. You can't read the swaths of garbage promoted by the group and return and report. I don't see any of those involved doing the same for scientology. No they simply do the same thing Gemli does and ignore it.

[drumdude]

I am just fed up with how I get treated online. Over at the growth of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints blog spot I made some comments analyzing the backgrounds of some of the new area seventies. I was then mercilessly mocked and attacked for doing so.

I am fed up with how I get attacked. I am fed up with being mocked and attacked. I am fed up with what I do not being appreciated. I am down right angry.

I have to admit that Dan’s blog is very helpful to keep me laughing and cheery throughout the day, if only for the gems like this.

He doesn’t realize that the new area 70’s are as (non)noteworthy as the board members of the local YMCA. Even to other Mormons.

[malkie]

I am just fed up with how I get treated online. Over at the growth of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints blog spot I made some comments analyzing the backgrounds of some of the new area seventies. I was then mercilessly mocked and attacked for doing so.

I am fed up with how I get attacked. I am fed up with being mocked and attacked. I am fed up with what I do not being appreciated. I am down right angry.

I have to admit that Dan’s blog is very helpful to keep me laughing and cheery throughout the day, if only for the gems like this.

He doesn’t realize that the new area 70’s are as (non)noteworthy as the board members of the local YMCA. Even to other Mormons.

Hey - wait a minute!

One of the current area 70s used to be a member of my young adult sunday school class. Let's have a little respect here!