Conference talk on abortion

[MG 2.0]

Here's another sourced piece of information on abortions in the early church. The book is written from interviews and other sources related to Joseph Smith'. Read the section(s) on Nauvoo around pages 55-65 or so. The author interviewed a woman who described the wide practice of church leaders "getting rid of an unwanted pregnancy":

https://archive.org/details/josephsmith ... 8/mode/2up

So, you admit you were wrong on the first count, apparently.

In regard to your second link (you're full of them, aren't you?) we have this:

Wilhelm Ritter von Wymetal, in his critical writings about early Mormon history, particularly highlighted figures like John C. Bennett when discussing men in Nauvoo practicing polygamy. Bennett, a controversial figure, was known for his involvement in polygamy and other alleged immoral activities during his time in Nauvoo. The Higbee brothers, Chauncey and Francis, were also implicated in similar controversies, often tied to accusations of seduction and secretive practices.
Copilot A.I.

Bennett, the Higbee brothers, and others were flying under the radar. They got caught. Bennett left Nauvoo and then wrote a so-called expose.

The problem I see with critics is they tend to look at and rely on sources that 'have it in' for Joseph Smith from the get-go.

And they fall for it.

Twice now, wang. Going for number three?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Heber C. Kimball’s Conference talk, “Abortion here is as common as wheat.”

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ymv94F2nC_A

Thanks for that. Proves what I was saying. He was calling the nation to repentance.

As he should have.

Looks like you're relying on experts. How old is she?

By the way, you will want to read ALL of page 91 and 92 in the JD. I've provided the links.

Regards,
MG

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Let’s see, Heber C. Kimball directed his wife to get an abortion (which she did), Heber C. Kimball spoke in General Conference about how common abortions in Utah were and an objective source describing the abortions among early church leaders.

Pretty hostile sources.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Abortion in LDS policy

Until 1976, the LDS church had no instructions in its handbook about abortion. Looking through the official handbook for 1960, 1963, 1968 … there’s nothing. Individual church leaders spoke out against abortion in the early 1970s, often as part of their denunciation of birth control, but there was no universal or codified policy.
It was only after Roe (1973) that the church began including abortion in its handbook for the first time.

https://religionnews.com/2022/06/29/mor ... -changing/

[MG 2.0]

Let’s see, Heber C. Kimball directed his wife to get an abortion (which she did), Heber C. Kimball spoke in General Conference about how common abortions in Utah were and an objective source describing the abortions among early church leaders.

Pretty hostile sources.

So, let's put this to rest, shall we?

Kimball reportedly recalled advising his wife during their courtship to seek a doctor to terminate a pregnancy, which she followed. However, the context and authenticity of such historical accounts can be debated, as they reflect the perspectives and practices of the time.
Copilot A.I.

The claim that Heber C. Kimball advised terminating a pregnancy during his courtship with his first wife, Vilate Murray, is not substantiated by the provided sources. The search results focus on his public roles as a prominent early Latter-day Saint leader, his missionary work, polygamous marriages, and political activities in Utah. Key details from the sources include:

Marriage and Family: Kimball married Vilate Murray in 1822, and they remained together until her death in 1868. The sources emphasize his adherence to plural marriage (eventually marrying 43 women) but do not mention any conflicts or discussions about pregnancy termination during their courtship.

Public Stance on Morality: While the sources highlight Kimball’s leadership in religious and community affairs, they do not address personal medical decisions or private marital advice. His documented concerns centered on church governance, economic independence, and missionary work.

Historical Gaps: None of the provided materials—including biographies, church records, or journals—reference such an incident. Claims about private conversations or unverified historical anecdotes would require corroboration from primary sources, which are absent here.

Vilate Murray was indeed Heber C. Kimball's first wife, as documented in multiple sources. They married civilly on November 7, 1822, in Mendon, New York, and remained together until her death in 1867. Key details include:

Marriage and Family: Vilate and Heber had 11 children together, including Helen Mar Kimball (later a plural wife of Joseph Smith).

Role in Early Mormonism: Vilate was baptized into the LDS Church in 1832, supported Heber’s leadership roles, and participated in early church initiatives like the construction of the Kirtland Temple.

Plural Marriage: Though Heber later entered plural marriages (eventually having 37 wives), Vilate remained his first and primary spouse. Their daughter Helen Mar Kimball noted Vilate’s eventual acceptance of plural marriage after receiving personal spiritual confirmation.

There is no evidence in the provided sources that Heber C. Kimball advised his wife Vilate Murray Kimball—or anyone else—to seek an abortion. The search results focus on historical accounts of polygamy, marital dynamics, and Joseph Smith’s plural marriages, but none mention abortion in connection to Heber or Vilate. Key points from the sources:

Helen Mar Kimball’s Marriage: Heber and Vilate allowed their 14-year-old daughter, Helen Mar Kimball, to be sealed to Joseph Smith as a plural wife. The sources emphasize the controversial nature of this union but do not reference abortion.

Heber’s Test of Faith: A narrative describes Heber being asked by Joseph Smith to “give” Vilate to him in marriage, which is framed as a test of faith akin to Abraham’s sacrifice. However, this account concludes with Joseph symbolically sealing Heber and Vilate together rather than enacting the proposed arrangement.

Vilate’s Role: Vilate is portrayed as a supportive spouse who accepted plural marriage after personal spiritual confirmation. No source mentions pregnancy-related conflicts or medical interventions.

Regards,
MG

[Everybody Wang Chung]

In addition to Heber C. Kimball admitting in General Conference that "abortions were as common as wheat" in Zion, we have biblical scholar Dan McClellan showing that neither the Bible or Jesus condemned abortion, let alone viewed it as sin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXb2R0-uj6k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTppNVaFRrU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXPS4O1T8-A

[I Have Questions]

For reference:
“No wonder then that Heber C. Kimball, recalling his courtship with a woman he married in 1822, claimed that she had been "taught ... in our young days, when she got into the family way, to send for a doctor and get rid of the child"; a course that she followed. (Footnote 9).

Primary Source Citation: Heber C. Kimball in the Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. (Liverpool, 1857), V:91-92.

[Doctor Steuss]

It's interesting that the critics are always looking for the next 'big thing' that a general authority says [...]

Or maybe just a single big thing. That'd be cool.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

For reference:
“No wonder then that Heber C. Kimball, recalling his courtship with a woman he married in 1822, claimed that she had been "taught ... in our young days, when she got into the family way, to send for a doctor and get rid of the child"; a course that she followed. (Footnote 9).

Primary Source Citation: Heber C. Kimball in the Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. (Liverpool, 1857), V:91-92.

But MG claims that A.I. told him there was no source for this. I don't know whether to believe MG or the Primary Source Citation: Heber C. Kimball in the Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. (Liverpool, 1857), V:91-92.

It's a real dilemma.

[Kishkumen]

The big story here is not the false claim about Kimball, which is silly in the extreme, but the idea that one polygamist man could be an effective father for the children of all his many wives (Kimball had 43). The neglect that follows the demographic imbalance of polygamy leads to a lot of evils. Failures in the home, and dangerous repercussions for the community. One man creates many sons, many of whom will receive little attention and even scanter opportunity for a marriage of their own, and then trouble ensues. The great riches of one man, as is so often the case, lead to the poverty of many men and disorder in the community.