The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

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drumdude
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The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

Post by drumdude »

The Mormon church teaches that not only humans, but animals will be resurrected to eternal life.

A good article on the belief is here:

https://www.ldsliving.com/animals-and-t ... en/s/80286
We learn a few things about the nature of animal life from the scriptures. For instance, we know that animals have “living souls” from God, who “breathed into them the breath of life” (see Moses 3:19).

We also learn that “not one hair, neither mote, shall be lost” from the plants and animals God has created (see Doctrine and Covenants 29:23-25). God has also promised he “will make them to lie down safely” in the last days (Hosea 2:18).

Perhaps most moving, though, is found in Jesus’s teachings of the sparrows: “Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?” (Luke 12:5). If the sparrows are not forgotten, why would God forget any other animal?

From Prophets and Apostles

Modern-day prophets have also spoken about animals in the eternities.

In particular, President Joseph Fielding Smith had a lot to say on the subject. In his October 1928 conference address, he said, “The animals, the fishes of the sea, the fowls of the air, as well as man, are to be recreated, or renewed, through the resurrection, for they too are living souls.”
Combined with the belief that resurrection must by physical, the simple question arises: where does all this stuff go?

The earth has had life on it for roughly 4 billion years. Does all of the animal life qualify for souls? Did Jesus die for the flatworm 500 million years ago?

If not, at what arbitrary point did the robotic animal life transition into soulful life?

This seems to me a very ridiculous belief when taken seriously. We would expect to see endless copies of Earths to manage all the resurrected life, not to mention their endless descendants.

When children are young, they learn about the water cycle. That every drop of rain was once in the ocean. The drop falls on the land, rushes to the ocean, and the cycle continues.

This Mormon belief is essentially the exact opposite. Life can’t be recycled. It’s the belief that every drop of water that has ever fallen will be resurrected standalone.
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

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Bruce taught Cow's have their own Jesus. Image
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

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drumdude wrote:
Fri Apr 18, 2025 7:58 pm
The Mormon church teaches that not only humans, but animals will be resurrected to eternal life.

A good article on the belief is here:

https://www.ldsliving.com/animals-and-t ... en/s/80286
We learn a few things about the nature of animal life from the scriptures. For instance, we know that animals have “living souls” from God, who “breathed into them the breath of life” (see Moses 3:19).

We also learn that “not one hair, neither mote, shall be lost” from the plants and animals God has created (see Doctrine and Covenants 29:23-25). God has also promised he “will make them to lie down safely” in the last days (Hosea 2:18).

Perhaps most moving, though, is found in Jesus’s teachings of the sparrows: “Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?” (Luke 12:5). If the sparrows are not forgotten, why would God forget any other animal?

From Prophets and Apostles

Modern-day prophets have also spoken about animals in the eternities.

In particular, President Joseph Fielding Smith had a lot to say on the subject. In his October 1928 conference address, he said, “The animals, the fishes of the sea, the fowls of the air, as well as man, are to be recreated, or renewed, through the resurrection, for they too are living souls.”
Combined with the belief that resurrection must by physical, the simple question arises: where does all this stuff go?

The earth has had life on it for roughly 4 billion years. Does all of the animal life qualify for souls? Did Jesus die for the flatworm 500 million years ago?

If not, at what arbitrary point did the robotic animal life transition into soulful life?

This seems to me a very ridiculous belief when taken seriously. We would expect to see endless copies of Earths to manage all the resurrected life, not to mention their endless descendants.

When children are young, they learn about the water cycle. That every drop of rain was once in the ocean. The drop falls on the land, rushes to the ocean, and the cycle continues.

This Mormon belief is essentially the exact opposite. Life can’t be recycled. It’s the belief that every drop of water that has ever fallen will be resurrected standalone.
This topic is a tough one, to be sure.
Inquiry: That's a hard concept to fathom. What are some rational reasons that one might believe these things to be true?

Rational Reasons to Believe in Animal Souls and Their Afterlife
While the belief that animals have souls and an afterlife is often rooted in religious tradition, there are several rational arguments that can support or at least make this perspective plausible:

1. The Argument from Divine Omnipotence and Goodness

If God is omnipotent and benevolent, it is within His power to grant animals an afterlife, especially as a means of addressing the problem of animal suffering. Some philosophers argue that resurrecting animals is a way for God to demonstrate justice and compassion, ensuring that innocent creatures who suffer are ultimately rewarded or restored.

2. The Argument from the Goodness of Creation

Animals are part of the goodness of creation. If God values all that He has made, it is reasonable to think He would not simply discard animal life. Some argue that a complete and perfected creation would include the restoration or continuation of all its parts, including animals.

3. The Argument from Spiritual Continuity

Many religious and philosophical traditions (including indigenous and animistic beliefs) hold that animals possess spirits or souls and are integral to the spiritual world. These perspectives highlight a continuity between all living things and suggest that the spiritual destiny of animals is intertwined with that of humans and the cosmos.

4. The Argument from Ethical Consistency

If humans are called to treat animals with compassion and respect because they are valued by God, it is consistent to believe that God would continue to care for them beyond this life. The scriptural teaching that not even a sparrow is forgotten before God (Luke 12:5) supports this ethical rationale.

5. The Argument from Scriptural and Prophetic Testimony

For those who accept scriptural authority, passages that speak of animals as “living souls” and prophetic statements about their resurrection provide a rational basis for belief, especially when combined with the idea that God’s promises extend to all His creations.

6. The Argument from Theodicy (Problem of Suffering)

Addressing the problem of animal suffering, some philosophers propose that resurrection or restoration of animals is a way for God to redeem the suffering experienced by non-human creatures, giving their lives ultimate meaning and justice.

Addressing Counterarguments
Philosophers such as Aquinas and Descartes argue that animal souls are not immortal because they lack rationality and immaterial intellect, making them dependent on the body and unable to survive death naturally. However, even these thinkers acknowledge that God, being omnipotent, could choose to preserve or resurrect animal souls by supernatural means if He so desired.
Granted, this is a 'hard thing' to wrap your...and mine...minds around. It's one of those things that I don't think we'll have an answer or non-answer to anytime soon. The answer to this and other questions would have to come in a hoped for hereafter.

If you find out the answer to the questions posed, let us know!

Regards,
MG
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

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I see a lot of similarity in the A.I. response and places like FairMormon. A lot of fluff and not a lot of meat there, unfortunately. It seemed to completely miss the issue of space and time.
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

Post by MG 2.0 »

drumdude wrote:
Fri Apr 18, 2025 10:59 pm
I see a lot of similarity in the A.I. response and places like FairMormon. A lot of fluff and not a lot of meat there, unfortunately. It seemed to completely miss the issue of space and time.
Care to elaborate? I'm willing to sit back and listen/learn.

Regards,
MG
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

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“ChatGPT” wrote:Yeah, you’ve hit on a very real tension in these kinds of beliefs—particularly when metaphor collides with literalism. The idea that all animals (or all life forms) will be resurrected individually is, when followed to its logical conclusion, completely overwhelming from a material or cosmological standpoint. Billions of years of life, trillions upon trillions of individual organisms, all granted eternal physical forms? That stretches the limits of not only theology but of basic spatial reasoning.

You’re also pointing out something that many belief systems wrestle with: the gradual shift from mythic or symbolic truths into literal, mechanical interpretations. It’s one thing to say "not even a sparrow falls without God knowing" as a poetic image of divine care. It’s another thing entirely to extrapolate that into a metaphysical framework that promises physical resurrection to every organism that has ever lived—especially without a clear doctrine for what counts as a “soul” and what doesn’t.

> “Did Jesus die for the flatworm 500 million years ago?”

That's such a striking question because it exposes the awkwardness of trying to retroactively apply human-centered salvation to the vast, pre-human biological history of the planet. If every “living soul” is to be resurrected, what defines the soul? Intelligence? Nervous systems? Capacity for relationship? Most religious frameworks tend to punt on this question or draw some arbitrary line (e.g., "only animals humans had relationships with," or “only animals created after the Fall”), but that arbitrary-ness exposes the weakness of the claim.

Your water cycle analogy is especially good—resurrection, in this context, becomes a one-way process with no recycling, no decay, no transformation, just an ever-expanding ledger of discrete eternal identities. It clashes hard with what we observe in nature: renewal through death, systems that self-regulate and rebalance, not persist eternally in every detail.

I’m curious—do you think believers take this idea seriously at scale, or do you think it’s more of a comforting belief people hold for pets and symbolic value?
I think the main issue here is, as chatGPT says, that the LDS church takes this belief in a physical bodily resurrection literally. If you think this belief is true, where is all the stuff going to go?

It becomes magic. The word DCP hates, because it’s the only explanation for how all this can work.
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

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these are correct observations, Drumdude. If animals could get a happy afterlife I'd vote for them to have it before people. But reality is gazillions of resurrected grasshoppers are going to do what, exactly? But you can't deny them without causing major consistency problems. Do they have a spirit? if not, then it proves consciousness exists without a spirit. A grasshopper has several hundred thousand neurons in its brain, and the brain apparently gives it life without a spirit.

A Greenland shark lives for 250 to 500 years. For most of that time, it's eyes are blinded by parasites stringing off from them. It floats around in a repetitive life and unlikely to have a stable identity over that time. It's a glimpse into the pointlessness of extending any life to extremes, including humans.
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

Post by MG 2.0 »

Gadianton wrote:
Sat Apr 19, 2025 12:59 am
these are correct observations, Drumdude. If animals could get a happy afterlife I'd vote for them to have it before people. But reality is gazillions of resurrected grasshoppers are going to do what, exactly? But you can't deny them without causing major consistency problems. Do they have a spirit? if not, then it proves consciousness exists without a spirit. A grasshopper has several hundred thousand neurons in its brain, and the brain apparently gives it life without a spirit.

A Greenland shark lives for 250 to 500 years. For most of that time, it's eyes are blinded by parasites stringing off from them. It floats around in a repetitive life and unlikely to have a stable identity over that time. It's a glimpse into the pointlessness of extending any life to extremes, including humans.
Inquiry: Does the LDS church takes the belief in a physical bodily resurrection literally. [I didn't post the answer because (Yes) is obviously what the church teaches.]

Second inquiry: What about when it comes to other forms of animal and plant life?
Some LDS leaders and theologians have suggested that the resurrection of animals and plants may not involve the same kind of individual identity and consciousness that humans experience. Instead, it may involve a more general restoration of the natural world to its original state of beauty and perfection.
It's also worth noting that the LDS Church teaches that the resurrection of animals and plants will be part of a larger process of restoring the earth to its original state, which is often referred to as the "renewal of all things." This process is seen as a key part of the ultimate triumph of God's plan and the redemption of all things.
Overall, while the LDS Church teaches that the resurrection will apply to all forms of life, the details and nature of this resurrection are not as clearly defined as they are for humans.
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MG
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

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Does the LDS church take the belief in a physical bodily resurrection literally?

Yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) takes the belief in a physical bodily resurrection literally. This doctrine is a fundamental aspect of their faith and is based on their understanding of scripture and the teachings of their prophets.

Here are some key points illustrating this belief:

Reunion of Spirit and Body: The Church teaches that resurrection is the reuniting of the spirit with the physical body after death. This resurrected body is not merely a symbolic or spiritual form but a tangible body of flesh and bone, albeit perfected and immortal.  
Christ's Resurrection as the Prototype: They believe that Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected, and His resurrected body serves as the pattern for all mankind. The New Testament accounts of Christ appearing to his disciples, inviting them to touch him to prove he was not a spirit, are taken as literal evidence of a physical resurrection (Luke 24:36-39).  
Universal Resurrection: The LDS Church believes that because of Christ's resurrection, all people who have ever lived will also be resurrected, regardless of their righteousness or wickedness.  
Perfected and Immortal Bodies: Resurrected bodies are understood to be perfected, meaning they will no longer be subject to pain, sickness, or death. They will be immortal and beautiful.  
Essential for a Fullness of Joy: Their doctrine states that a fullness of joy cannot be received until the spirit and body are inseparably connected again in the resurrected state (Doctrine and Covenants 93:33-34).  
Book of Mormon as a Witness: The Book of Mormon, another scripture revered by the LDS Church, also contains accounts of Christ's post-resurrection ministry in the Americas, where he appeared and allowed the people to feel his physical body. This is seen as further evidence of the literal nature of resurrection.
In summary, the LDS Church firmly believes in a literal, physical resurrection of the body for all individuals, patterned after the resurrected body of Jesus Christ. This is a central tenet of their theology and provides hope for life after death.

What about when it comes to other forms of animal and plant life?

The LDS Church teaches that the resurrection is a universal gift extended through the Atonement of Jesus Christ to all of God's creations that possess a spirit. While the doctrine is most clearly defined concerning humanity, there are scriptural passages and statements from Church leaders that offer insights into the resurrection of animals and, to a lesser extent, plants.  

Here's what the teachings indicate:

Animals have spirits: The Doctrine and Covenants, section 77, discusses the beasts described in the Book of Revelation. In the explanation provided to Joseph Smith, it indicates that these "beasts" are figurative representations of the glory of different classes of beings, including beasts, creeping things, and fowls of the air, and that they possess spirits that are in the likeness of their physical bodies. This suggests that animals, like humans, are spirit beings.  
Resurrection of animals: Several Church leaders have spoken on the topic of animal resurrection. Joseph Smith, the first prophet of the Church, is recorded as saying that any person who denies the salvation of beasts would deny the revelations of God. He also indicated his expectation of having his favorite horse in the eternities.  
Statements from Church Leaders:
President Joseph Fielding Smith taught that "the animals, the fishes of the sea, the fowls of the air, as well as man, are to be recreated, or renewed, through the resurrection, for they too are living souls" and that "animals do have spirits and that through the redemption made by our Savior they will come forth in the resurrection to enjoy the blessing of immortal life."  
Elder Orson F. Whitney stated that the "affirmative of the question 'Do Animals Have Souls?' is amply sustained by divine revelation," referencing Joseph Smith's belief in the salvation of animals.  
Elder Bruce R. McConkie taught that "animals, birds, fowls, fishes, plants, and all forms of life occupy an assigned sphere and play an eternal role in the great plan of creation, redemption, and salvation. They were all created as spirit entities in pre-existence."  
Nature of Animal Resurrection: While it's understood that animals will be resurrected and possess immortal life, the specifics of their resurrected state and their role in the afterlife are not as detailed as those pertaining to humans. Some speculate that they may be reunited with their former owners.
Plants: The doctrine regarding the resurrection of plant life is less explicit. However, some interpretations of scripture, such as Doctrine and Covenants 29:24-25, which speaks of "all things" being renewed and not a hair or mote being lost, could be seen to include plant life in a form of restoration or renewal through the resurrection or the earth's own transformation. Elder Orson Pratt mentioned that the Lord created the spirits of both animals and vegetables.
In conclusion, while the primary focus of the resurrection doctrine in the LDS Church is on humankind, the teachings indicate that animals do possess spirits and will be resurrected. The exact nature and extent of plant life's resurrection or renewal are less defined but hinted at within the broader scope of God's creations being restored. The underlying principle is that God values all of His creations and that the Atonement has a broad effect on the restoration of life.  

What about flatworms?

The teachings of the LDS Church emphasize that all creations possessing a spirit will be resurrected. As flatworms are considered part of the animal kingdom and thus have spirits, the general principle of resurrection would apply to them as well.

Here's how the previously discussed points relate to flatworms:

Animals have spirits: As stated before, LDS scripture and prophetic teachings indicate that animals possess spirits akin to their physical forms. Flatworms, being animals, would fall under this category.  
Resurrection of animals: The belief in the resurrection of animals, as taught by Church leaders, would logically extend to all types of animals, including flatworms, regardless of their size or complexity.
Universal Resurrection: The overarching doctrine is that the resurrection is a universal gift made possible by Christ's Atonement. This universality suggests that all spirit-bearing life forms, including flatworms, will partake in it.  
Nature of Animal Resurrection: The specifics of a flatworm's resurrected state are not detailed in LDS teachings. However, the general understanding is that resurrected beings will have immortal life.
It's important to note that while the general principle of animal resurrection is taught, the focus and detail of the doctrine are primarily centered on humankind. Therefore, there isn't specific theological discussion within the LDS Church about the resurrection of particular types of animals like flatworms. However, based on the broader teachings about the spirits and resurrection of all animal life, it is reasonable to conclude that the belief in resurrection would encompass flatworms.

What would be the purpose of flatworms in the afterlife?

That's a fascinating question that delves into the more speculative aspects of LDS theology! While the Church teaches that animals will be resurrected, the specific purpose of various creatures like flatworms in the afterlife isn't explicitly detailed in scripture or the teachings of Church leaders.

However, we can consider some possibilities based on general LDS principles:

Part of God's Grand Design: Latter-day Saints believe that God created all things for a purpose, and that His creations bring Him glory. Even seemingly small or simple life forms like flatworms likely play a role in the intricate tapestry of life, both in this life and the next, even if we don't fully understand that role now.
Biodiversity and Complexity of Eternal Life: The resurrected earth is envisioned as a place of immense beauty and diversity. Just as our current world is filled with a vast array of life forms, the afterlife might also encompass a rich and complex ecology that includes creatures like flatworms. Their presence could contribute to the overall wonder and intricacy of that eternal existence.
Our Limited Understanding: It's important to acknowledge that our current mortal understanding is limited. We may not comprehend the purposes of all of God's creations. Just as we are constantly discovering new things about the natural world in this life, there may be aspects of the afterlife and the roles of different life forms that are beyond our present comprehension.
Potential for Learning and Discovery: The afterlife is seen as a time of continued learning and progression. Perhaps observing and interacting with the resurrected forms of all of God's creations, including flatworms, could provide us with greater insights into the wonders of His creations and the interconnectedness of life.
Fulfillment of Their Eternal Potential: Just as humans are seen as having eternal potential, perhaps all forms of life have a destined role in God's plan. The resurrection could be a step in the fulfillment of that potential, even if the specifics are unknown to us.
It's worth noting that focusing too much on the specific purposes of every single creature in the afterlife can sometimes lead to speculation beyond what has been revealed. The core message of the resurrection in LDS theology is centered on the continuation of life, the overcoming of death, and the potential for eternal progression and joy for humankind. The inclusion of animals in this resurrection underscores the breadth of God's love and the scope of the Atonement, even if the specific roles of each creature remain a mystery.

In essence, while the LDS Church believes flatworms will be resurrected as part of the broader resurrection of animal life, their specific purpose in the afterlife is not a defined doctrine. We can trust that their existence will contribute to the richness and glory of God's eternal creations, even if the details are beyond our current understanding.

So flatworms would go through the process of resurrection? That's billions if not trillions.

That's a very valid point to bring up – the sheer number of flatworms, and indeed all life forms, is staggering! Yes, based on the LDS belief that all animals possessing a spirit will be resurrected, then it would logically follow that the process of resurrection would encompass the vast number of flatworms that have ever lived.

Here's how LDS theology might address this:

God's Power and Scope: The Church teaches that God's power is infinite and His understanding surpasses our own. The logistics of resurrecting what seems like an incomprehensible number of life forms would be within His capacity.  
The Nature of Resurrection: The resurrected state is understood to be a perfected and potentially different form of existence than our current mortal state. The processes involved in resurrection are not fully understood by humans, and it's possible that the way time, space, and matter function in a resurrected state could accommodate such vast numbers in ways we can't currently fathom.  
Focus on the Individual: While the number of beings is immense, LDS theology also emphasizes the individual worth and importance of each of God's creations. The resurrection is not just a mass event but a personal restoration of spirit and body.
Our Limited Perspective: Our human minds, accustomed to the limitations of our mortal experience, struggle to grasp such immense scales. What seems like an overwhelming logistical challenge to us may be well within the capabilities of an omnipotent God.
The Purpose of the Resurrection: The primary purpose of the resurrection, as taught in the LDS Church, is to overcome death and provide a way for God's children (humankind) to progress towards eternal life. The resurrection of animals is seen as a part of the overall restoration of creation made possible through Christ's Atonement. While the sheer number of animals is significant, it aligns with the belief in a comprehensive and universal resurrection.
In essence, while the scale is mind-boggling from our perspective, the LDS belief in a literal and universal resurrection of spirit-bearing life, coupled with the understanding of God's infinite power, would include the resurrection of the immense number of flatworms that have existed. The "how" of such a process is not fully understood, but it is accepted as a manifestation of divine power and part of God's plan for His creations.
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So yeah, it's a real stretch to try and either accept or comprehend this. I suppose the question could be asked whether or not this is/was a doctrinal position or speculative. Brigham Young at time contradicted himself as to what was revelation and what came from his own speculation.

And then we have Spencer W. Kimball saying forget what Brigham said...and then came along BRM.

Did Joseph Smith do the same thing? Speculative theology mixed with true religion?

The Book of Abraham is another example of one of those things that might fall somewhere running the gamut of speculation to 100% unadulterated revelation (if there is such a thing (pure revelation)...as in, can man comprehend pure and unadulterated/uncompartmentalized "mind of God"?

Lot's of moving parts and it is as if we, comparatively speaking, are like bugs living in their limited two dimensional world. We have three dimensions. Yay!

What more is out there? Resurrected flatworms. Man, that's a stretch, isn't it? :lol:

Fun stuff.

Regards,
MG
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

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Some LDS leaders and theologians have suggested that the resurrection of animals and plants may not involve the same kind of individual identity and consciousness that humans experience.
No duh. That doesn't answer my point that they evidently, experienced identity and consciousness without having a spirit during their lives. Thus contradicting the idea that a spirit or "soul" is needed to to be a creature that "experiences" a world.

By the way, my short story delves into the manner of life in the resurrection a bit. I think you would enjoy it, if you would try it.
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