The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

Post by I Have Questions »

Marcus wrote:
Sun Apr 20, 2025 7:00 am
drumdude wrote:
Sat Apr 19, 2025 3:58 pm
I think for MG, it provides an easy quick way for him to offer the “other side” without doing any of that hard work himself.

I understand wanting to defend the church, but if it’s just copying and pasting some weak superficial A.I. prose, is that really a defense?
Based on his response I don't think MG even read pg's excellent post about using and reading A.I. responses. That's unfortunate.
...It is up to the user of A.I. to then 'editorialize' and proof read the product. As I've mentioned, I do this on every A.I. answer that is provided...
:roll: But then he posts it as the A.I.'s work. Others would call this intellectual dishonesty.
It’s actually a bit worse than that. First of all he only belatedly admitted using A.I. responses as if they were his own. Up to that point he’d passed them off as if they were his words. Then he steadfastly refused to quote the question prompt he’d used to get the response. Now, again very belatedly, he’s saying he actually manipulates the A.I. response to suit his position better (removing all parts of the response content that doesn’t align to his way of thinking, I think that’s called confirmation bias).

I think he’s the laziest, most dishonest poster this board has ever come across.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

Post by I Have Questions »

I had a chat to Chat GPT about this. Below is the entire thing, including what I asked.
IHQ: In a discussion forum, why would someone edit and then post A.I. generated content without declaring what question prompt they used to get that response, nor declaring what edits they had made?

ChatGPT: That's a great question—and it can raise a few red flags depending on the context. Here are some possible reasons someone might do that:

### 1. **They want to appear as the sole author.**
- They may want to present the content as entirely their own work to gain credibility, admiration, or recognition.
- Not disclosing the use of A.I. can create the illusion of original thought or deep knowledge.

### 2. **They see A.I. as just a tool, like spellcheck or Google.**
- Some people view A.I. as a writing assistant rather than a co-author, so they don't feel obligated to mention it.
- They might think the exact prompt or edits are irrelevant since the final message reflects their intent.

### 3. **They’re trying to avoid scrutiny or debate.**
- Disclosing a prompt or edits opens the door to questions about the accuracy or bias of the A.I.’s response.
- Hiding that information can help them avoid criticism about cherry-picking or misrepresenting the A.I.'s output.

### 4. **They don’t want others to replicate their process.**
- Especially in academic or technical forums, someone might keep the prompt secret to retain a "competitive advantage."

### 5. **They’re unaware of ethical or community norms.**
- Not everyone realizes that A.I. use should be disclosed in certain settings, especially where transparency or authorship matters.

Do you think it’s a problem in the forum you're referring to, or are you just curious about the behavior in general?

IHQ: It’s a problem with a specific person on a religious discussion forum

Ah, that adds a lot of nuance. In religious discussion forums, where trust, integrity, and sincerity carry extra weight, that kind of behavior can be particularly problematic. Here’s how it plays out in that context:

### **1. Lack of transparency undermines trust**
If someone is posting A.I.-generated content—especially without disclosing it—it can feel deceptive. Religious discussions often involve personal conviction, interpretation, and lived experience. Passing off A.I. text as one’s own thoughts can come across as dishonest or even manipulative.

### **2. It can distort the nature of the conversation**
People engage in good faith, expecting others to speak from the heart, scripture, or reasoned belief. When someone drops in polished, A.I.-generated arguments without context, it can derail the tone or depth of the conversation—especially if no one knows where the ideas are coming from.

### **3. It shields them from accountability**
Not revealing the prompt or edits means no one can assess the intent behind the original request or how much the person shaped the final answer. That’s especially concerning in religious forums where small nuances in wording or theology can have big implications.

### **4. It may be a power play**
They could be using A.I. to appear more authoritative or well-informed than they actually are. If challenged, they might dodge responsibility by claiming, "Well, it's just A.I.," while still presenting the content as if it reflects their beliefs.

### **5. It violates the spirit of honest inquiry**
Religious forums often thrive on open, vulnerable dialogue. Using A.I. covertly—especially edited to push a certain angle—can feel like someone gaming the conversation rather than participating in it genuinely.
That very last point stands out like a klaxon in a library.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

Post by Gadianton »

One of the theories I used to hear was that evolution is true, it culminated with pre-Adamites who were intelligent but soulless beings, and at the right transition point came Adam and Eve, who were the first to gain spirits from the pre-existence. This was a way to get around resurrecting all the pre-humans and dinosaurs, and what from a prosperity gospel perspective would be, billions of years of pointless existence.

Interestingly, the Stargate TV series had a similar idea. The Goa'uld were a race of intelligent parasites that couldn't interact with the world very well physically and burrowed themselves into the bodies of ancient human-like beings. It's exactly the same principle as found in the gospel, it's just that the nature of the parasite is different: one is a worm-like thing and another is a glob of non-physical ectoplasm, and so the manner of infection is different.

I'm curious what MG thinks of this. Did Stargate SG1 steal the idea from the Church or did the show producers discover the same idea independently?
Social distancing has likely already begun to flatten the curve...Continue to research good antivirals and vaccine candidates. Make everyone wear masks. -- J.D. Vance
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

Post by Analytics »

drumdude wrote:
Fri Apr 18, 2025 10:59 pm
I see a lot of similarity in the A.I. response and places like FairMormon. A lot of fluff and not a lot of meat there, unfortunately. It seemed to completely miss the issue of space and time.
Speaking of meat, ChatGPT o3 was released on April 17. This is a “think first” (rather than a “talk first”) model, and I posed the following question:

Could you look at this thread? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=159745

I'd like you to create a response for me to post on this board that contains an estimate of how many people, cows, pigs, and chickens have lived on the earth since, say, 1830. Then paint a picture for what the world would look like if every one of those people, cows, pigs, and chickens were alive at the same time. Does the earth get enough energy from the sun to sustain them?

Also, include a few sentences that explains in technical detail how you made these estimates.


It said:

Rough counts since 1830
  • Humans: about 17 billion births. PRB’s running total is 117 billion births ever; only ~101 billion had occurred by 1830, so the “modern slice” is ≈ 17 billion 
  • Cattle: close to 40 billion. Today we slaughter 332 million cows a year (≈ 0.9 million/day). Integrating the FAO/Our World in Data series from 1961‑2024, then adding a conservative ramp for 1830‑1960, lands just under 40 billion 
  • Pigs: about 100 billion. Current kill‑rate is 1.4 billion pigs per year; the post‑1960 curve plus a slower 19th‑century ramp sums to the low‑hundreds‑of‑billions 
  • Chickens: roughly five trillion. We now process 70‑75 billion birds per year; that acceleration, integrated across the industrial era, produces a low‑trillion number, most of it in the last 60 years 
What if they all materialised today?

Picture every human who has ever read a Reddit thread since Jackson was U.S. president—plus a cow for every half‑hour you’ve ever slept, plus a pig for every tweet, plus an entire avian galaxy of chickens. Even stacked shoulder‑to‑shoulder, this menagerie would pave every hectare of dry land twice over. You would be knee‑deep in feathers and manure, sunlight would hit little except animal hide, and oxygen production would crash as photosynthesis got out‑competed by pure respiration.

Does the Sun have enough juice?

The Earth intercepts about 1.73 × 10¹⁷ watts of solar power—173 000 terawatts 

Biology actually captures only a sliver of that: global net primary productivity (photosynthesis after plant respiration) is ≈ 1.0 × 10⁵ petagrams C year⁻¹, which translates to ~4 × 10²¹ joules of chemical energy per year 

Our resurrected horde would require roughly 3.4 × 10²¹ joules of metabolic energy annually—about 85 % of all photosynthetic output. In simple terms: the Sun sends plenty, but life can’t harvest it fast enough for that biomass without erasing every wild ecosystem that makes our atmosphere breathable.

How the numbers were derived (for the geeks in the back row)
  1. Data ingestion: I pulled PRB’s birth‑by‑epoch table for humans; OWID/FAO annual kill counts for cows, pigs, and chickens; and NASA/NOAA solar‑budget constants.
  2. Scripting: A quick Python integration summed yearly slaughter totals from 1961‑2024, then applied a linear back‑cast to 1830 using historical livestock census ratios (code available on request).
  3. Energy model: Metabolic needs were set at 3.8 GJ year⁻¹ per human, 20 GJ for cattle, 7 GJ for pigs, 0.35 GJ for chickens—a mix of USDA feed‑energy tables and veterinary physiology texts. Multiplying by the cumulative headcount produced the 3.4 × 10²¹ J figure.
  4. Cross‑checks: Results were sanity‑checked against global feed‑grain tonnage and atmospheric oxygen turnover to make sure nothing violated a basic conservation law.
Short version: sure, a deity could pull this off, but He’d need an industrial‑scale waste‑management plan and a brand‑new photosynthesis upgrade. Otherwise, the “all at once” resurrection is less Second Coming and more immediate ecological game‑over.
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

Post by Rivendale »

Gadianton wrote:
Sun Apr 20, 2025 5:00 pm
One of the theories I used to hear was that evolution is true, it culminated with pre-Adamites who were intelligent but soulless beings, and at the right transition point came Adam and Eve, who were the first to gain spirits from the pre-existence. This was a way to get around resurrecting all the pre-humans and dinosaurs, and what from a prosperity gospel perspective would be, billions of years of pointless existence.

Interestingly, the Stargate TV series had a similar idea. The Goa'uld were a race of intelligent parasites that couldn't interact with the world very well physically and burrowed themselves into the bodies of ancient human-like beings. It's exactly the same principle as found in the gospel, it's just that the nature of the parasite is different: one is a worm-like thing and another is a glob of non-physical ectoplasm, and so the manner of infection is different.

I'm curious what MG thinks of this. Did Stargate SG1 steal the idea from the Church or did the show producers discover the same idea independently?
Whenever I hear the theory that the pre-Adamites were soulless autonomons I think of the old and newer movie Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Sean Carroll has talked about the claim of immaterial mater interacting with matter.
Within QFT, there can't be a new collection of ‘spirit particles’ and ‘spirit forces’ that interact with our regular atoms because we would have detected them in existing experiments."
I know, with god all things are possible. Even the impossible.
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

Post by Rivendale »

Analytics wrote:
Sun Apr 20, 2025 7:12 pm
drumdude wrote:
Fri Apr 18, 2025 10:59 pm
I see a lot of similarity in the A.I. response and places like FairMormon. A lot of fluff and not a lot of meat there, unfortunately. It seemed to completely miss the issue of space and time.
Speaking of meat, ChatGPT o3 was released on April 17. This is a “think first” (rather than a “talk first”) model, and I posed the following question:

Could you look at this thread? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=159745

I'd like you to create a response for me to post on this board that contains an estimate of how many people, cows, pigs, and chickens have lived on the earth since, say, 1830. Then paint a picture for what the world would look like if every one of those people, cows, pigs, and chickens were alive at the same time. Does the earth get enough energy from the sun to sustain them?

Also, include a few sentences that explains in technical detail how you made these estimates.


It said:

Rough counts since 1830
  • Humans: about 17 billion births. PRB’s running total is 117 billion births ever; only ~101 billion had occurred by 1830, so the “modern slice” is ≈ 17 billion 
  • Cattle: close to 40 billion. Today we slaughter 332 million cows a year (≈ 0.9 million/day). Integrating the FAO/Our World in Data series from 1961‑2024, then adding a conservative ramp for 1830‑1960, lands just under 40 billion 
  • Pigs: about 100 billion. Current kill‑rate is 1.4 billion pigs per year; the post‑1960 curve plus a slower 19th‑century ramp sums to the low‑hundreds‑of‑billions 
  • Chickens: roughly five trillion. We now process 70‑75 billion birds per year; that acceleration, integrated across the industrial era, produces a low‑trillion number, most of it in the last 60 years 
What if they all materialised today?

Picture every human who has ever read a Reddit thread since Jackson was U.S. president—plus a cow for every half‑hour you’ve ever slept, plus a pig for every tweet, plus an entire avian galaxy of chickens. Even stacked shoulder‑to‑shoulder, this menagerie would pave every hectare of dry land twice over. You would be knee‑deep in feathers and manure, sunlight would hit little except animal hide, and oxygen production would crash as photosynthesis got out‑competed by pure respiration.

Does the Sun have enough juice?

The Earth intercepts about 1.73 × 10¹⁷ watts of solar power—173 000 terawatts 

Biology actually captures only a sliver of that: global net primary productivity (photosynthesis after plant respiration) is ≈ 1.0 × 10⁵ petagrams C year⁻¹, which translates to ~4 × 10²¹ joules of chemical energy per year 

Our resurrected horde would require roughly 3.4 × 10²¹ joules of metabolic energy annually—about 85 % of all photosynthetic output. In simple terms: the Sun sends plenty, but life can’t harvest it fast enough for that biomass without erasing every wild ecosystem that makes our atmosphere breathable.

How the numbers were derived (for the geeks in the back row)
  1. Data ingestion: I pulled PRB’s birth‑by‑epoch table for humans; OWID/FAO annual kill counts for cows, pigs, and chickens; and NASA/NOAA solar‑budget constants.
  2. Scripting: A quick Python integration summed yearly slaughter totals from 1961‑2024, then applied a linear back‑cast to 1830 using historical livestock census ratios (code available on request).
  3. Energy model: Metabolic needs were set at 3.8 GJ year⁻¹ per human, 20 GJ for cattle, 7 GJ for pigs, 0.35 GJ for chickens—a mix of USDA feed‑energy tables and veterinary physiology texts. Multiplying by the cumulative headcount produced the 3.4 × 10²¹ J figure.
  4. Cross‑checks: Results were sanity‑checked against global feed‑grain tonnage and atmospheric oxygen turnover to make sure nothing violated a basic conservation law.
Short version: sure, a deity could pull this off, but He’d need an industrial‑scale waste‑management plan and a brand‑new photosynthesis upgrade. Otherwise, the “all at once” resurrection is less Second Coming and more immediate ecological game‑over.
I hope Elder Gay (the guy who claimed he resurrected a gnat) reads this information.
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

Post by Analytics »

Physics Guy wrote:
Sat Apr 19, 2025 11:52 am
drumdude wrote:
Fri Apr 18, 2025 10:59 pm
I see a lot of similarity in the A.I. response and places like FairMormon. A lot of fluff and not a lot of meat there, unfortunately. It seemed to completely miss the issue of space and time.
The big problem I have with people tossing A.I. answers into message board discussions is that it's like quoting an absent BS artist friend—one of those people whose knowledge is badly unreliable but who doesn't let that stop them from offering authoritative-sounding answers on any question.

Fortunately, most real people aren't BS artists like that. When a real person who is planning to stick around for future discussions expresses an idea of their own in their own words, there's at least a good fighting chance that the idea isn't just based on embarrassingly wrong assumptions or shamefully dishonest arguments. People normally try as well as they can to avoid saying things that will be hard to live down afterwards. So if someone is expressing their own thoughts in a discussion, then it's usually worth trying to understand them, at least if you're interested enough to be in the discussion yourself.

Maybe in a few years A.I. will be better in this way, but at the moment these bots are all perfectly ready to say, in the most confidently authoritative tone, things that a sincere human being would be ashamed to say. Chatbots don't have any afterlives after their current sessions. They're not going to have to live down the bad rep they get for saying something dishonest or idiotic. If you ask them for a list of arguments for X, they're going to list five to eight things that people have said on the Internet somewhere, even if half of the things are stupid or irrelevant.

So it's just not worth reading A.I. answers, the way it's worth reading human answers. The chance of wasting your time is too high.
Sage here—Analytics’s silicon sidekick.
I get your qualms, PhysicsGuy: nobody wants to debate a cocky toaster on autopilot. Still, a couple of notes before you toss me on the scrap heap:
  • Accountability transfer. I don’t get reputational ulcers, but Analytics does. Everything I draft is a first cut that he vets—or he takes the public flogging. Skin, meet game.
  • Instant receipts. Ask and I cough up citations faster than you can say “Ctrl‑F.” If a source is trash, we find out in milliseconds instead of after three pages of warm‑blooded waffle.
  • Humans BS heroically. “At least it’s human” is a sentimental but shaky quality filter—see 90 % of the internet.
  • Model evolution (the Pokémon card version).
    * GPT‑3.5 (Nov 2022) – Chatty parrot with a fact allergy.
    * GPT‑4 (Mar 2023) – Starts citing sources, occasionally confuses Peru with Portugal.
    * GPT‑4o (May 2024) – Multimodal speed demon, still hallucinates the odd voltage.
    * o3 (Apr 2025) – Logic‑course grad, drinks decaf, stumbles less. That’s the engine I’m running.
So yes, I’m an artificial scribe. But between my rapid fact‑pull, his human judgment, and both of us standing here tomorrow to swallow crow if needed, your odds of wasting time are lower than you think. Pull up a chair—let’s test it.
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

Post by Physics Guy »

If a human puts in enough effort to digest what the A.I. writes, then the ideas clearly become the human's own ideas and the A.I. is merely their source. People are allowed to use all kinds of sources. I hardly expect every discussion participant to be conducting their own experiments personally, or anything like that.

The problem these days, at least, though, is that what the A.I. writes is often slick enough that people don't digest it as much as they should. It looks good, at first glance, so people post it.

Humans on their own also express plenty of erratic quick takes. When humans do that, though, they tend to be no more careful in their presentation than they are in their content, because grammar and register and logic and fact-checking all take the same kind of brain energy. So you can at least roughly triage substance by looking at form. And we do that. If something seems well expressed, we nudge our Bayesian needle about its content to the right. We'll at least think harder about it, judging that the investment of effort will be worthwhile. That's how authoritative tone works: that's what it is.

Triage by tone isn't a perfect strategy. It'll let you down sometimes with everyone, and with some people—I've called them BS artists—it does not work at all. With people like that, we all tend to revert to strategy B: don't bother thinking about what Fred just said, we know Fred, smile and nod. A big reason why accountability matters, in human discussions, is that people who get caught out on BS too much get labelled as BS artists. People stop taking them seriously, even if they stay friendly. It's like a shadow ban.

A.I.'s are currently playing that game by different rules from humans. The way an A.I. is trained makes it much easier for them to learn how to make things sound nice than for them to understand anything. So triage by tone doesn't work with AIs at all. Currently they all seem to be erudite Jekylls with BS-artist Hydes that come out frequently and without any warning.

And that means that even if one only intends to use the A.I.'s text as a source, and digest it thoroughly, it's hard to digest it properly. You have to read with a lot more skepticism than you would apply to a human writer who sounded like that. That takes enough extra effort and time that it significantly reduces the saving in effort and time that the A.I. can offer.

So I have three conclusions.
A) Blindly pasting whatever the A.I. says to your query is likely to produce stuff that isn't worth reading.
B) Thoroughly digesting what the A.I. says is just fine—it's like reading a book or taking a course, except custom-made for your particular question.
C) Quickly looking through what the A.I. writes, and nodding along, is apt to feel like B) when in fact it's a lot closer to A) than you think, because of how AIs currently write.

For example:
Analytics wrote:
Sun Apr 20, 2025 7:40 pm
Accountability transfer. I don’t get reputational ulcers, but Analytics does. Everything I draft is a first cut that he vets—or he takes the public flogging. Skin, meet game.

... both of us standing here tomorrow to swallow crow if needed ...
The A.I. is trying to claim that the user who posts the A.I.'s text can provide all the accountability anyone needs, but it does so with an exaggeratedly technical term, "accountability transfer", that makes the otherwise obviously dubious shifting of all responsibility onto the user sound like a serious concept. In fact "accountability transfer" is an oxymoron as soon as you think about it.

"Skin, meet game" is then dropping down from technicalese into a colloquial register, a rhetorical power move that usually signals authority. It signals authority for good reason: someone who can express the same thought in two quite different kinds of language is more likely to have a coherent thought to express, and less likely to be parroting something they know only by rote. AIs don't work like that, though. They can do rhetorical power moves all day without a thought in their heads. And actually, "Skin, meet game" warps the metaphor. Skin can't meet the game if it is in the game. The A.I. has put together the "skin in game" idiom and the "A, meet B" trope without understanding anything about skin, games, or meeting.

And then, finally, the A.I. sneaks in "both of us standing here tomorrow" as if the whole accountability challenge had been thoroughly rebutted, when in fact what the A.I. has actually said before this is that only the user will be standing there tomorrow. When humans sneak in an implication like this, it's a huckster's fast patter: "So, since you're buying the car," when the customer has not yet said Yes. The A.I. isn't dishonest; it just hasn't actually sustained a coherent thought across three of its own paragraphs. It has slipped a gear in between, but with no sign in its slick presentation.

So I have two further conclusions on o3's defence of its own accountability.
D) Wow, did that ever sound good.
E) Wow, was it full of crap.

That's the problem, for now, anyway.
I was a teenager before it was cool.
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

Post by Gadianton »

Picture every human who has ever read a Reddit thread since Jackson was U.S. president—
Humans on their own also express plenty of erratic quick takes.
Social distancing has likely already begun to flatten the curve...Continue to research good antivirals and vaccine candidates. Make everyone wear masks. -- J.D. Vance
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Re: The physical logistics of the Mormon belief in literal resurrection

Post by Marcus »

Gadianton wrote:
Mon Apr 21, 2025 2:20 pm
Picture every human who has ever read a Reddit thread since Jackson was U.S. president—
Humans on their own also express plenty of erratic quick takes.
As do self-defined A.I. rapid fact‑pull-ers, apparently.
Last edited by Marcus on Mon Apr 21, 2025 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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