LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

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MG 2.0
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by MG 2.0 »

Rivendale wrote:
Thu Apr 24, 2025 10:56 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Apr 24, 2025 10:37 pm
Many I've grown up with in my family and those friends in the church over the years that were around during the 1978 revelation didn't necessarily think of "racism" being the determining factor behind the blacks not receiving the priesthood before then. But I have to tell you, myself and those that I've talked to are awfully grateful that this revelation finally came.

Also, I would have to be honest, there were some men in church leadership that did have strains of racism running through their veins. It took a while to get to 1978.

Regards,
MG
And modern racism was just a stretch too far for God to tell them to knock it off.
That's the way I look at it now. Hindsight is always better than foresight and/or living in the moment. The trial of faith is often being able to make it to the other side.

Regards,
MG
I Have Questions
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by I Have Questions »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Thu Apr 24, 2025 11:23 pm
I Have Questions wrote:
Thu Apr 24, 2025 7:47 am
Noted. You were an apologist for a belief system that includes magic rocks, so I’d say your response lacks some self awareness, at least on face value.
So....... ya lost me here........ my not believing in a flat earth and noting this makes me a believer in magic rocks and a lack of self awareness? Not sure I see how you connect these...... are you confusing my response with someone else's?
No, I’m not. In response to a question I asked MG’ly you replied that you think believers in a Flat Earth are dumb. I’m simply pointing out that you’ve been on the flat earth side of the fence.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by I Have Questions »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Apr 24, 2025 10:37 pm
Many I've grown up with in my family and those friends in the church over the years that were around during the 1978 revelation didn't necessarily think of "racism" being the determining factor behind the blacks not receiving the priesthood before then.
Really? So what did you think was behind it?
But I have to tell you, myself and those that I've talked to are awfully grateful that this revelation finally came.
What were you grateful for?
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
I Have Questions
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by I Have Questions »

sock puppet wrote:
Thu Apr 24, 2025 10:09 pm
I Have Questions wrote:
Thu Apr 24, 2025 9:51 pm
Trying to bypass the off topic distraction by reposting this…
It appears to be a calculated duplicity. For the older Mormons that grew up pre-1978 when the LDS Church was overtly racist, the current Regime of 15 doesn't want to upset them. Many are in the prime of their tithe-paying years. Keeping it online, buried deep does little harm.

For the younger Mormons, if called out for their racism the current Regime of 15 can point to the essay and say, see, we're not hiding it.

It's just a matter of wanting to have it both ways to appeal to the different age groups.
I think you’re probably right. What is interesting now is that there isn’t a living Apostle who was an Apostle at the time the ban was in place. None of the Q12 or FP can been held accountable for the policy, it was at the hands of their predecessors. So they could renounce it, they could offer and institutional apology, and they could call it out for what it was, racist. They’ve thrown past Prophets and Apostles under the bus for less. I think the problem is those racist scriptures. They don’t know what to do about them.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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sock puppet
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by sock puppet »

Rivendale wrote:
Thu Apr 24, 2025 10:56 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Apr 24, 2025 10:37 pm
Many I've grown up with in my family and those friends in the church over the years that were around during the 1978 revelation didn't necessarily think of "racism" being the determining factor behind the blacks not receiving the priesthood before then. But I have to tell you, myself and those that I've talked to are awfully grateful that this revelation finally came.

Also, I would have to be honest, there were some men in church leadership that did have strains of racism running through their veins. It took a while to get to 1978.

Regards,
MG
And yet Brad Wilcox was upset that the whites had to wait until 1830. Exactly like biblical slavery. God can command clothing requirements, food requirements but those hard ones he doesn't have the power to overcome the culture. And modern racism was just a stretch too far for God to tell them to knock it off. But coffee was paramount. Let 'em drink postum.
BOOM!!!
"Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving god, while this same God drowned infants in their cribs." Sam Harris
MG 2.0
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by MG 2.0 »

I Have Questions wrote:
Fri Apr 25, 2025 7:00 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Apr 24, 2025 10:37 pm
Many I've grown up with in my family and those friends in the church over the years that were around during the 1978 revelation didn't necessarily think of "racism" being the determining factor behind the blacks not receiving the priesthood before then.
Really? So what did you think was behind it?
But I have to tell you, myself and those that I've talked to are awfully grateful that this revelation finally came.
What were you grateful for?
At that time I don't know that I gave it a lot of thought. I was grateful that the blacks and all worthy males could receive the Priesthood. Hindsight tells me that there was an element of racism involved among some of the presiding authorities of the church. Whether or not there was something beyond that, I don't know.

Regards,
MG
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by I Have Questions »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Apr 25, 2025 5:01 pm
I Have Questions wrote:
Fri Apr 25, 2025 7:00 am
Really? So what did you think was behind it? What were you grateful for?
At that time I don't know that I gave it a lot of thought. I was grateful that the blacks and all worthy males could receive the Priesthood. Hindsight tells me that there was an element of racism involved among some of the presiding authorities of the church. Whether or not there was something beyond that, I don't know.

Regards,
MG
Which apostles at the time do you now think were racists? Does the fact that you sustained those men equate to you being complicit in racism? (I’m unsure how you escape from being complicit if you sustained them at the time).
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
MG 2.0
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by MG 2.0 »

I Have Questions wrote:
Fri Apr 25, 2025 8:07 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Apr 25, 2025 5:01 pm
At that time I don't know that I gave it a lot of thought. I was grateful that the blacks and all worthy males could receive the Priesthood. Hindsight tells me that there was an element of racism involved among some of the presiding authorities of the church. Whether or not there was something beyond that, I don't know.

Regards,
MG
Which apostles at the time do you now think were racists? Does the fact that you sustained those men equate to you being complicit in racism? (I’m unsure how you escape from being complicit if you sustained them at the time).
The ones most often mentioned. In order for me to be complicit I would have to have known what was going on in some detail and be paying attention.

I didn't and I wasn't.

Even though at the time I was raising my hand to sustain leaders. One can't/shouldn't be held responsible for something that is done out of ignorance.

Regards,
MG
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Rivendale
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by Rivendale »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Apr 25, 2025 9:36 pm
I Have Questions wrote:
Fri Apr 25, 2025 8:07 pm
Which apostles at the time do you now think were racists? Does the fact that you sustained those men equate to you being complicit in racism? (I’m unsure how you escape from being complicit if you sustained them at the time).
The ones most often mentioned. In order for me to be complicit I would have to have known what was going on in some detail and be paying attention.

I didn't and I wasn't.

Even though at the time I was raising my hand to sustain leaders. One can't/shouldn't be held responsible for something that is done out of ignorance.

Regards,
MG
Let me see if I got this right. During the time you raised your hand to support leaders that enforced a temple ban on anyone with a drop of African American blood you had no moral compulsion to see this as immoral? You were ignorant of this? This is straight up white plantation owner logic with slavery.
MG 2.0
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Re: LDS Church urges members to call out racism in their congregations

Post by MG 2.0 »

Rivendale wrote:
Fri Apr 25, 2025 10:09 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Apr 25, 2025 9:36 pm
The ones most often mentioned. In order for me to be complicit I would have to have known what was going on in some detail and be paying attention.

I didn't and I wasn't.

Even though at the time I was raising my hand to sustain leaders. One can't/shouldn't be held responsible for something that is done out of ignorance.

Regards,
MG
Let me see if I got this right. During the time you raised your hand to support leaders that enforced a temple ban on anyone with a drop of African American blood you had no moral compulsion to see this as immoral? You were ignorant of this? This is straight up white plantation owner logic with slavery.
Permission- not thinking about it to any extent that I can even remember... Although I may have read articles in Sunstone or Dialogue in the home I grew up in. Honestly, I don't have any firm memory of that. My high school years and permission are kind of a blur when it comes to things religious. On my mission- I don't think I really gave it any thought except for one time when we were teaching a black person and we weren't able to baptize him. I thought that was sad. After my mission- I went to BYU and simply got involved in school and work.

I do remember the time and place, however, when I heard about the change in the priesthood ordination policy and remember being excited for that. I was still single and living with roommates.

Regards,
MG
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