How Biblically Literate are Mormons as a Whole?

[PseudoPaul]

"Jesus was the Messiah and Son of God."

They believed this but these terms meant different things to different people. Minimally "son of God" can just mean God's chosen human representative. Others believed him to be a quasi divine being, either made divine at his resurrection, his baptism, or his birth.

Your knowledge is well beyond mine, so I may be wrong here, but I would also adjust it from "the" Messiah to "a" Messiah. There was nothing about a singular Messiah, and there were messianic figures that predated Jesus.

Ironically, rather than freeing them from Roman rule, it was a short time later that the Temple was destroyed by Rome, and the fiscus Judaicus was implemented. Naturally this required some modifications to the established Messiah mythoi. Then, when Christianity and Rome became essentially synonymous, the Christian emperors persecuted the Jews within the empire.

Kind of a Messianic belly flop, overall.

Yes, a messiah, since of course Cyrus is called a messiah in Second Isaiah. The concept was to save people from the oppression of the foreign occupiers, not cleans people from sin via vicarious suffering.

[PseudoPaul]

In those days it was really a Jewish faith, not a Christian one.

I believe some historians refer to it as “Jewish Christianity” which is an interesting description.

The similarities would mostly have been around certain universal ethical teachings (do not kill, do not commit adultery, do not lust). But even there there were stark differences. For example, Jesus taught marriage was inferior to being single, and taught that marriage was for life only. He also taught that remarrying a second person after a divorce constituted adultery.

Wait, what? Really? I’m not saying you aren’t correct, but please can you point me in the direction of where those teachings by Jesus can be found?

On divorce and remarriage. Mark 10:11 He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, 12 and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

This is the earliest, most original version of the teaching. Note there is no exception given for infidelity.

Mark 12: 24 Jesus said to them, “Is not this the reason you are wrong, that you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like angels in heaven.

Jesus very clearly teaches that marriage is temporary, for this life only.

Matthew 19: 10 The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” 11 But he said to them, “Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.”

Most scholars seem to think Jesus is using eunuch as a metaphor for remaining celibate. Paul taught something similar, saying marriage was only for those too weak to handle celibacy. They both foresaw an immanent eschaton, so marriage and family what not a high priority in their worldview.

[Gadianton]

It seems as though this would have been the ONE time in the Ministry of Jesus that it was truly a Christian faith...before it morphed into something else.

It only seems that way because you've been taught this your whole life as a Mormon.

I recall "they were first called Christians (sarcastically) at Antioch"

PseudoPaul, when does the word "Christ" enter the picture?

Did the word "Christ" exist during Jesus' ministry?

[PseudoPaul]

In those days it was really a Jewish faith, not a Christian one.

It seems as though this would have been the ONE time in the Ministry of Jesus that it was truly a Christian faith...before it morphed into something else.

I'm not sure that I would equate indulgences and other corruptions of original teachings as being the Christian faith in its truest/purest form.

I suppose some would say that about Restoration Doctrines and practices. The key difference, however, being that the restoration makes the claim of receiving those doctrines and practices directly from God and Jesus rather than as an evolution of thought within the early days after Jesus and the Apostles were gone. It's difficult to get a handle on how much of what ended up happening was a result of the 'mind of man' vs. the 'mind of God'...or some mix of the two.

As it is, the original teachings that we seem to basically agree on were morphed into something that was called the Catholic Church and thereafter the Christian Church...but it didn't/doesn't seem to resemble the earliest beliefs of the original disciples of Jesus.

It seems to be kind of hit and miss. Grace vs. works and all that and other things.

I suppose, if you believe Jesus was God, that it comes down to where did the direct connection with God and man end? At Jesus's death? 200 years after? The connection never lapsed?

Or something else?

Regards,
MG

Not really, Christianity came about in the generations after Jesus. It was a religion about what people came to believe about Jesus (especially about the significance of his death), but not the religion of Jesus.

In the early days of Christianity there was a lot of disagreement and factionalization. There was never a single unified pre-Catholic Christianity, but many diverse and divergent primitive Christianties.

Arguably the teaching of Jesus' death as atonement was the earliest corruption of his teachings. He did not teach anything like that, which is why his death took his disciples by surprise.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

This is the core of LDS belief.

Regards,
MG

Wasn't polygamy for Joseph Smith once considered their Principal belief?

Now, the core belief is wearing super comfortable sacred underwear and memorizing masonic handshakes while dressed as a baker from outer space. Just like Jesus taught in the New Testament.

[I Have Questions]

I believe some historians refer to it as “Jewish Christianity” which is an interesting description.


Wait, what? Really? I’m not saying you aren’t correct, but please can you point me in the direction of where those teachings by Jesus can be found?

On divorce and remarriage. Mark 10:11 He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, 12 and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

This is the earliest, most original version of the teaching. Note there is no exception given for infidelity.

Mark 12: 24 Jesus said to them, “Is not this the reason you are wrong, that you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like angels in heaven.

Jesus very clearly teaches that marriage is temporary, for this life only.

Matthew 19: 10 The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” 11 But he said to them, “Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.”

Most scholars seem to think Jesus is using eunuch as a metaphor for remaining celibate. Paul taught something similar, saying marriage was only for those too weak to handle celibacy. They both foresaw an immanent eschaton, so marriage and family what not a high priority in their worldview.

Thank you PseudoPaul, that’s very informative. It seems Mormonism is anti-Bible.

[I Have Questions]

This is the core of LDS belief.

Regards,
MG

Wasn't polygamy for Joseph Smith once considered their Principal belief?

First it was their literal belief. Then it became their principal belief. Now it is only among some of their beliefs. Oh…wait…I might be getting mixed up…

[Moksha]

Paul taught something similar, saying marriage was only for those too weak to handle celibacy. They both foresaw an imminent eschaton, so marriage and family what not a high priority in their worldview.

Had Christians remained celibate, they would have died out. Had they become Mormon, the polygamy would have led to constant warfare. Had they become Jewish, they would have developed a foolproof system to buy wholesale.

[PseudoPaul]

Had Christians remained celibate, they would have died out.

Yes they would have. There were two competing schools of thought on marriage in early Christianity - one was anti-marriage and anti-family. Paul and Jesus were in this camp, but some of Paul's later followers were even more ardent about it.

There was also the pro-marriage camp, typically third generation Christians who were more culturally Romanized. You find this attitude in the forged Pastoral epistles.

The Shakers had a very strict anti-marriage attitude, and they ended up dying out, pretty much. But in the first century, there was something kind of freeing about it, especially for women. Women who had children had a huge chance of dying in childbirth.

[malkie]

It seems as though this would have been the ONE time in the Ministry of Jesus that it was truly a Christian faith...before it morphed into something else.

It only seems that way because you've been taught this your whole life as a Mormon.

I recall "they were first called Christians (sarcastically) at Antioch"

PseudoPaul, when does the word "Christ" enter the picture?

Did the word "Christ" exist during Jesus' ministry?

Interestingly, it seems as if the writer of 2 Nephi 25 thought that "Jesus Christ" was a name, and not a name+title, or name+office.

19 For according to the words of the prophets, the Messiah cometh in six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem; and according to the words of the prophets, and also the word of the angel of God, his name shall be Jesus Christ, the Son of God.