WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

[Markk]

Morley: Cooper basically suggests that the Holocaust was a logistical tragedy, not a well thought-out plan. Neo-Nazis often argue the Holocaust was either exaggerated or accidental. Cooper modifies this to be that it was the result of poor war-planning and the fog of war.

Was Cooper incorrect? Are you saying that in 1939, after the swift defeat of , that Germany was ready for the handling and extermination of 3 million Jews?

The factual history has nothing to do with Neo-Nazi rhetoric in my world, maybe it does with you, but I doubt that. Trying force a factual history into a sick ideology of Neo-Nazis does not make for a logical argument.

Morley, was Germany ready, with just six camps, which were built for political prisoners, to deal with the extermination of 3 million Jews? The answer to that question is no, they just weren't.

In 1939 the Germans were clearly persecuting the Jews, but it was not until 1941 and 1942, did the Germans start mass exterminations. Until the camps were built, again over 1000, the Nazis kept the Jews in ghettos and worked and starved them to death for the most part, when they were not beating and shooting them.

In 1942 they were still discussing this given the number of Jews that they wanted to murder, some 11 million. There what was called the Wannsee Conference, called by maybe the most ruthless Nazi of all....Reinhard Heydrich. On a side note he got his own a few months later when he was assassinated by two Czechs trained for the mission, it is a great story.

But anyways, Cooper was in no way spouting or hinting at Neo-Nazi rhetoric, it is just a false and a stretch of a comparison.

I am going to go out on a limb, and I can't prove it, and I might be wrong, but the only reason this was made "news," is because it involved Tucker Carlson.

[Morley]

Morley: Cooper basically suggests that the Holocaust was a logistical tragedy, not a well thought-out plan. Neo-Nazis often argue the Holocaust was either exaggerated or accidental. Cooper modifies this to be that it was the result of poor war-planning and the fog of war.

Was Cooper incorrect? Are you saying that in 1939, after the swift defeat of , that Germany was ready for the handling and extermination of 3 million Jews?

The factual history has nothing to do with Neo-Nazi rhetoric in my world, maybe it does with you, but I doubt that. Trying force a factual history into a sick ideology of Neo-Nazis does not make for a logical argument.

Morley, was Germany ready, with just six camps, which were built for political prisoners, to deal with the extermination of 3 million Jews? The answer to that question is no, they just weren't.

In 1939 the Germans were clearly persecuting the Jews, but it was not until 1941 and 1942, did the Germans start mass exterminations. Until the camps were built, again over 1000, the Nazis kept the Jews in ghettos and worked and starved them to death for the most part, when they were not beating and shooting them.

In 1942 they were still discussing this given the number of Jews that they wanted to murder, some 11 million. There what was called the Wannsee Conference, called by maybe the most ruthless Nazi of all....Reinhard Heydrich. On a side note he got his own a few months later when he was assassinated by two Czechs trained for the mission, it is a great story.

But anyways, Cooper was in no way spouting or hinting at Neo-Nazi rhetoric, it is just a false and a stretch of a comparison.

I am going to go out on a limb, and I can't prove it, and I might be wrong, but the only reason this was made "news," is because it involved Tucker Carlson.

I agree with your last statement. The only reason it made news was because, Tucker Carlson, someone who should have known better, gave Cooper a platform. I expect more—from even the most partisan of pricks—than to give voice to neo-Nazi propaganda.

[Morley]

Was Cooper incorrect?

Absolutely. That’s exactly what I’ve been arguing.

That the Third Reich did a crappy job of implementing their plans doesn’t redeem them in any way.

[Morley]

You know, from all the history you’ve read, that the Nazis had the extermination planned from the beginning. Cooper is suggesting otherwise.

Edited typo.

[Morley]

In 1942 they were still discussing this given the number of Jews that they wanted to murder, some 11 million.

For what it’s worth, it was about six-and-a-half million Jews. The rest were gays, Roma, artists, writers, and other undesirables.

[Morley]

The factual history has nothing to do with Neo-Nazi rhetoric in my world, maybe it does with you, but I doubt that. Trying force a factual history into a sick ideology of Neo-Nazis does not make for a logical argument.

By factual history, you of course mean things like, “Churchill was a blood thirsty sociopath.”

[Markk]

Morley: At one point, Cooper says, “Rather than let them starve, wouldn’t it be more humane to finish them off?” He then suggests that gas chambers were a way to minimize suffering. Neo-Nazis have long held that the camps were labor centers, not death factories, and that deaths were due to famine or disease. Cooper doesn’t outright deny the Holocaust—but explains it as a kind of bureaucratic blundering. The Nazis then really had no choice but to kill the Jews.

That is just false and a spin of what he actual said in context. Cooper was quoting history, a Nazi commandant that was actually in charge of starving the Jews, that you're some how implying did not happen, that is in the mind of Neo-Nazis?

I am not sure if you have seen photos of Holocaust victims, but they were in a very large part skin and bones, literally. I am not sure you thought this out very well Morley.

There were around 6 million Jews killed in the war. It's hard to say how each one died and percentages of how they died, but I believe it is safe to say that more died from starvation, disease, being worked to death or beaten, or shot, than in the gas chambers. It's a sad and sick discussion to have Morley, and I am not sure why you want to go there by saying starvation and disease of Jews is propaganda from neo-Nazis, but I would be a hypocrite to say that it was not part of the historical record.

Does Cooper anywhere deny that Jews did not die in gas chambers?

Cooper is not in any way saying the intent was not there, he talks about it....he is saying, like many, even Holocaust victims, that the Germans were not prepared for their sadistic extermination of some 11 million Jews.

Again, this is the context of what Cooper said:

https://youtu.be/vOTgPEGYS2o?t=2798

[Markk]

Was Cooper incorrect? Are you saying that in 1939, after the swift defeat of , that Germany was ready for the handling and extermination of 3 million Jews?

The factual history has nothing to do with Neo-Nazi rhetoric in my world, maybe it does with you, but I doubt that. Trying force a factual history into a sick ideology of Neo-Nazis does not make for a logical argument.

Morley, was Germany ready, with just six camps, which were built for political prisoners, to deal with the extermination of 3 million Jews? The answer to that question is no, they just weren't.

In 1939 the Germans were clearly persecuting the Jews, but it was not until 1941 and 1942, did the Germans start mass exterminations. Until the camps were built, again over 1000, the Nazis kept the Jews in ghettos and worked and starved them to death for the most part, when they were not beating and shooting them.

In 1942 they were still discussing this given the number of Jews that they wanted to murder, some 11 million. There what was called the Wannsee Conference, called by maybe the most ruthless Nazi of all....Reinhard Heydrich. On a side note he got his own a few months later when he was assassinated by two Czechs trained for the mission, it is a great story.

But anyways, Cooper was in no way spouting or hinting at Neo-Nazi rhetoric, it is just a false and a stretch of a comparison.

I am going to go out on a limb, and I can't prove it, and I might be wrong, but the only reason this was made "news," is because it involved Tucker Carlson.

I agree with your last statement. The only reason it made news was because, Tucker Carlson, someone who should have known better, gave Cooper a platform. I expect more—from even the most partisan of pricks—than to give voice to neo-Nazi propaganda.

Morley, you are not even trying, and show you have no desire to understand what occurred.

Here read this....

The Germans began World War II by invading Poland in September 1939. The Nazi leaders then shifted priorities in anti-Jewish policy from expulsion from German-controlled territory to concentration of European Jewish populations in locations suited to future permanent removal. It is not clear that the Nazi leaders were already envisioning mass murder as their "solution" to their so-called Jewish problem.

As a temporary measure, while the top leadership considered long-term options, German authorities established ghettos in the General gouvernement (that part of German-occupied Poland not directly annexed to Germany, attached to German East Prussia or incorporated into the German-occupied Soviet Union) and in the District Wartheland, commonly called the Warthegau (an area of western Poland directly annexed to the German Reich). From late 1939, German SS and police authorities deported Polish, German, Austrian, and Czech Jews to these ghettos.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... %20ghettos.

[Markk]

Was Cooper incorrect?

Absolutely. That’s exactly what I’ve been arguing.

That the Third Reich did a crappy job of implementing their plans doesn’t redeem them in any way.

Where is he redeeming them? He is just telling what occurred.

And as I have shown you, they did not have a specific plan, which is central to the point Cooper was making.

[Markk]

You know, from all the history you’ve read, that the Nazis had the extermination planned from the beginning. Cooper is suggesting otherwise.

Edited typo.

No he didn't; he is saying they weren't prepared to implement mass murder... if I am wrong, and he isn't sure, then The Holocaust Encyclopedia, a very respected source, agrees it is not clear. Are these folks Neo-Nazis?

Establishment of Ghettos
The Germans began World War II by invading Poland in September 1939. The Nazi leaders then shifted priorities in anti-Jewish policy from expulsion from German-controlled territory to concentration of European Jewish populations in locations suited to future permanent removal. It is not clear that the Nazi leaders were already envisioning mass murder as their "solution" to their so-called Jewish problem.

As a temporary measure, while the top leadership considered long-term options, German authorities established ghettos in the Generalgouvernement (that part of German-occupied Poland not directly annexed to Germany, attached to German East Prussia or incorporated into the German-occupied Soviet Union) and in the District Wartheland, commonly called the Warthegau (an area of western Poland directly annexed to the German Reich). From late 1939, German SS and police authorities deported Polish, German, Austrian, and Czech Jews to these ghettos.