WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

[Markk]

Who has said Cooper denies the Holocaust? I have no idea what you're talking about.

Lol all those media outlets and the Jewish democrats in congress.

Pull up the WSJ article on it and paste it.

[Morley]

Who has said Cooper denies the Holocaust? I have no idea what you're talking about.

Lol all those media outlets and the Jewish democrats in congress.

Pull up the WSJ article on it and paste it.

Pull it up yourself.

You make it sound like everyone says Cooper denies the Holocaust. You make it sound like I say Cooper denies the Holocaust. Stupid claims like this make it difficult for folks to talk to you.

I've read no one saying that Cooper denies the Holocaust. No one. I've never said that Cooper denies the Holocaust. What people do say is that Cooper has some inaccurate revisionist history about the Holocaust--but that's not the same thing as being a Holocaust denier. And he does. He has revisionist history about WWII.

[Morley]

Markk, was Churchill "the chief villain of World War II," like Cooper says around minute 50?

Are statements like this a part of what you call "Cooper's approach to history" that you admire?

I don't agree with his opinion, at least what I have heard about it in the podcast, but I understand it. He walks that statement back on Rogan and even on Tucker, if I remember he said it was a jab at his podcast partner whose wife is from the UK. But he did say he does not like Churchill as a leader and said a little as to why.

So this pile of feces is an opinion, but Cooper's other bucket of slop was him reciting history? You randomly pick and choose which things are "facts" and which things are Cooper's kooky, unjustified opinions. You then argue that the things that you like are The Truth That Nobody Else Dares To Say, while his other insane pronouncements are--meh--well, they don't matter.

I guess this is what you call "Cooper's approach to history" that you lament nobody understands.

edit: I need to revisit this:

I don't agree with his opinion, at least what I have heard about it in the podcast, but I understand it.

What is it that you understand about "Churchill was the chief villain of World War II"? How does this ring true? Who but a Nazi apologist would preach this?

[Markk]

Pull it up yourself.

You make it sound like everyone says Cooper denies the Holocaust. You make it sound like I say Cooper denies the Holocaust. Stupid claims like this make it difficult for folks to talk to you.

I read it when it came out. You apparently did not. You said a while back you read the WSJ and the NYTs....but oh well.

You keep asking me to opine to this question...

This is not just the reading of everyone else on this thread, it’s the interpretation of news media and organizations all over the world.

Well Morley, those news media interpretations that I have read, say that Cooper is a Holocaust denier.

Which is why I kept quoting this, and asking you where he denied the Holocaust.

"when they went into the east in 1941, they launched a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth, that they were going to have to handle; they went in with no plan for that...and, they just threw these people into camps and millions of people ended up dead there. You have letters, as early as July August 1941 from commandants of these makeshift camps they are setting up for these millions of people who were surrendering, or people they were rounding up, so two months after, or a month or two after operation Barbarossa was launched, and they are writing back to the high command in Berlin saying, "we can't feed these people, we don't have the food to feed these people," one of them actually says..." Rather to wait for them to slowly wait for these people to starve this winter, wouldn't it be more humane for us to finish them off quickly now..."

This is the WSJ....

In the wake of Mr. Carlson’s recent interview with Darryl Cooper, an unabashed Holocaust denier,

The Democrat congress
As Jewish Members of Congress, we are appalled that Tucker Carlson hosted and promoted Nazi apologist and Holocaust denier Darryl Cooper on his podcast.

NBC
But Cooper has made clear that his intellectual project regarding World War II includes Holocaust revisionism.

Media Matters
Carlson’s increased GOP prominence has coincided with his descent to new levels of unhinged crackpottery: The latest edition of his eponymous program dabbles in Holocaust denial and presents “Zionist” financiers as a motive force behind World War II.

Political
Tucker Carlson may have reached a disturbingly new low when he hosted a two-hour podcast with Darryl Cooper, a Nazi apologist whom he called “the best and most honest popular historian in the United States.”

The Week
Sep 10, 2024 — ... Holocaust-denier Darryl Cooper on his new online platform.

CNN
The Biden administration is denouncing Tucker Carlson after the far-right personality hosted a guest on his show this week who suggested the Holocaust happened by accident, calling the interview “a disgusting and sadistic insult to all Americans.”

During Carlson’s two-hour sit-down with Darryl Cooper, a podcaster whom he said “may be the best and most honest popular historian in the United States,” Cooper claimed that Nazi Germany’s mass murder of Jews was an unintended consequence – something akin to poor planning instead of the methodical extermination that it actually was.

The Bulwark
ep 10, 2024 — IT WAS SHOCKING, although not surprising, to see Tucker Carlson praise the prominent Holocaust denier Darryl Cooper,

I can paste more...But we both know after watching the podcast he was not in any way denying or revising the Holocaust, he was citing a Nazi commandant's letters to Berlin.

[Markk]

I don't agree with his opinion, at least what I have heard about it in the podcast, but I understand it. He walks that statement back on Rogan and even on Tucker, if I remember he said it was a jab at his podcast partner whose wife is from the UK. But he did say he does not like Churchill as a leader and said a little as to why.

So this pile of feces is an opinion, but Cooper's other bucket of slop was him reciting history? You randomly pick and choose which things are "facts" and which things are Cooper's kooky, unjustified opinions. You then argue that the things that you like are The Truth That Nobody Else Dares To Say, while his other insane pronouncements are--meh--well, they don't matter.

I guess this is what you call "Cooper's approach to history" that you lament nobody understands.

edit: I need to revisit this:

I don't agree with his opinion, at least what I have heard about it in the podcast, but I understand it.

What is it that you understand about "Churchill was the chief villain of World War II"? How does this ring true? Who but a Nazi apologist would preach this?

Now he is a Nazi apologist? What did he defend in that regard?

His opinion is that if Churchill would not have stood up and declared war on Germany, then WW2 might not have started. It was in context with Chamberlin conceding part of Czechoslovakia to Germany earlier in 1938 in the Munich agreement. Cooper saw if Churchill stood down, the west would have been neutral in Hitler's war against Communist Russia.

He also discussed Churchill's failures in WW1 and his drinking and his playing with toy soldiers. I have read both that he was a drunk and that he wasn't, so I am not sure about that, but he did have failures as an admiral in WW1. He had a 78% approval rating during WW2, so I guess Cooper would have been one of the 20% who did not like him.

[Chap]

His opinion is that if Churchill would not have stood up and declared war on Germany, then WW2 might not have started. It was in context with Chamberlin conceding part of Czechoslovakia to Germany earlier in 1938 in the Munich agreement. Cooper saw if Churchill stood down, the west would have been neutral in Hitler's war against Communist Russia.

Churchill did not declare war on Germany. He was not Prime Minister when war was declared, but took that office eight months after war had been declared.

Here is the declaration of war broadcast by the Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain in a radio broadcast on 3 September 1939, 11am, following on Germany's invasion of Poland:

I am speaking to you from the cabinet room at 10 Downing Street. This morning the British ambassador in Berlin handed the German government a final note stating that unless we heard from them by 11 o'clock that they were prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland, a state of war would exist between us. I have to tell you now that no such undertaking has been received, and that consequently this country is at war with Germany.

You can imagine what a bitter blow it is to me that all my long struggle to win peace has failed. Yet I cannot believe that there is anything more, or anything different, that I could have done and that would have been more successful. Up to the very last it would have been quite possible to have arranged a peaceful and honourable settlement between Germany and Poland. But Hitler would not have it. He had evidently made up his mind to attack Poland whatever happened, and although he now says he put forward reasonable proposals which were rejected by the Poles, that is not a true statement. The proposals were never shown to the Poles, nor to us, and though they were announced in the German broadcast on Thursday night, Hitler did not wait to hear comments on them, but ordered his troops to cross the Polish frontier the next morning.

His action shows convincingly that there is no chance of expecting that this man will ever give up his practice of using force to gain his will. He can only be stopped by force.

We have a clear conscience. We have done all that any country could do to establish peace. But the situation in which no word given by Germany's ruler could be trusted, and no people or country could feel itself safe, had become intolerable. And now that we have resolved to finish it, I know that you will all play your part with calmness and courage.

Oh, and at the time Hitler invaded Poland, he had a non-aggression pact with the Soviet Union. His attack on the Soviet Union happened two years later.

I do wish Markk would stop posting on serious historical topics about which he appears to be profoundly ignorant.

[Markk]

His opinion is that if Churchill would not have stood up and declared war on Germany, then WW2 might not have started. It was in context with Chamberlin conceding part of Czechoslovakia to Germany earlier in 1938 in the Munich agreement. Cooper saw if Churchill stood down, the west would have been neutral in Hitler's war against Communist Russia.

Churchill did not declare war on Germany. He was not Prime Minister when war was declared, but took that office eight months after war had been declared.

Here is the declaration of war broadcast by the Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain in a radio broadcast on 3 September 1939, 11am, following on Germany's invasion of Poland:

I am speaking to you from the cabinet room at 10 Downing Street. This morning the British ambassador in Berlin handed the German government a final note stating that unless we heard from them by 11 o'clock that they were prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland, a state of war would exist between us. I have to tell you now that no such undertaking has been received, and that consequently this country is at war with Germany.

You can imagine what a bitter blow it is to me that all my long struggle to win peace has failed. Yet I cannot believe that there is anything more, or anything different, that I could have done and that would have been more successful. Up to the very last it would have been quite possible to have arranged a peaceful and honourable settlement between Germany and Poland. But Hitler would not have it. He had evidently made up his mind to attack Poland whatever happened, and although he now says he put forward reasonable proposals which were rejected by the Poles, that is not a true statement. The proposals were never shown to the Poles, nor to us, and though they were announced in the German broadcast on Thursday night, Hitler did not wait to hear comments on them, but ordered his troops to cross the Polish frontier the next morning.

His action shows convincingly that there is no chance of expecting that this man will ever give up his practice of using force to gain his will. He can only be stopped by force.

We have a clear conscience. We have done all that any country could do to establish peace. But the situation in which no word given by Germany's ruler could be trusted, and no people or country could feel itself safe, had become intolerable. And now that we have resolved to finish it, I know that you will all play your part with calmness and courage.

Oh, and at the time Hitler invaded Poland, he had a non-aggression pact with the Soviet Union. His attack on the Soviet Union happened two years later.

I do wish Markk would stop posting on serious historical topics about which he appears to be profoundly ignorant.

Then jump in and read what I have been writing. Did you watch the podcast yet, which I was discussing?

It was Churchill's will that lead the UK into the war. You know that, or should. His "what ever the cost" speech/s. Chamberlin trusted Hitler as I discussed here with the Munich agreement, and he resigned shorty after the phony war, and Churchill became PM.

Oh, and at the time Hitler invaded Poland, he had a non-aggression pact with the Soviet Union. His attack on the Soviet Union happened two years later.

Apparently you have not been following my posts here, read again about Barbarossa. Hitler's original goal was to invade the east. He wanted the Ukraine as "his Garden" and that it was prime for the colonization of his so called Thousand Year Reich. And he wanted the oil fields in southern Russia to fuel it. And he wanted to stamp out Communism which along with the Jewish Question that he saw as the roots to Germany's decline after the first World War. Read about his time in Vienna, when he stated pondering these questions.

Cooper's assertion is that if Churchill did not push the war on the west, the war would have been between Germany and Russia. I don't agree, there were in my opinion too many other things going on, like Japan's aggressions, and Mussolini and that fascist state that would pressure otherwise.

It is easy for you to just say this or that waiting for me to say something sloppy, or you can actually read what occurred during the war, even in your own country, and join the conversation objectively.

I stepped into this conversation stating clearly I am not remotely an expert about WW2, but that I can hold my own, and I will stand by that. So take what I write in that context, and jump in with your knowledge and opinions and we can agree, or debate our different takes and views. There is so much room for that in discussing the war, it is how I learn for sure.

Start with watching the podcast and at least understand what I am talking about in regard to it.

[Chap]

I am not interested in wasting my time discussing the history of WWII with somebody as obviously ill-informed as Markk has more than once been shown to be. I don't think I shall be alone on this board in holding that attitude.

[Morley]

Pull it up yourself.

You make it sound like everyone says Cooper denies the Holocaust. You make it sound like I say Cooper denies the Holocaust. Stupid claims like this make it difficult for folks to talk to you.

I read it when it came out. You apparently did not. You said a while back you read the WSJ and the NYTs....but oh well.

You keep asking me to opine to this question...

This is not just the reading of everyone else on this thread, it’s the interpretation of news media and organizations all over the world.

Well Morley, those news media interpretations that I have read, say that Cooper is a Holocaust denier.

Which is why I kept quoting this, and asking you where he denied the Holocaust.

"when they went into the east in 1941, they launched a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth, that they were going to have to handle; they went in with no plan for that...and, they just threw these people into camps and millions of people ended up dead there. You have letters, as early as July August 1941 from commandants of these makeshift camps they are setting up for these millions of people who were surrendering, or people they were rounding up, so two months after, or a month or two after operation Barbarossa was launched, and they are writing back to the high command in Berlin saying, "we can't feed these people, we don't have the food to feed these people," one of them actually says..." Rather to wait for them to slowly wait for these people to starve this winter, wouldn't it be more humane for us to finish them off quickly now..."

This is the WSJ....

In the wake of Mr. Carlson’s recent interview with Darryl Cooper, an unabashed Holocaust denier,

The Democrat congress
As Jewish Members of Congress, we are appalled that Tucker Carlson hosted and promoted Nazi apologist and Holocaust denier Darryl Cooper on his podcast.

NBC
But Cooper has made clear that his intellectual project regarding World War II includes Holocaust revisionism.

Media Matters
Carlson’s increased GOP prominence has coincided with his descent to new levels of unhinged crackpottery: The latest edition of his eponymous program dabbles in Holocaust denial and presents “Zionist” financiers as a motive force behind World War II.

Political
Tucker Carlson may have reached a disturbingly new low when he hosted a two-hour podcast with Darryl Cooper, a Nazi apologist whom he called “the best and most honest popular historian in the United States.”

The Week
Sep 10, 2024 — ... Holocaust-denier Darryl Cooper on his new online platform.

CNN
The Biden administration is denouncing Tucker Carlson after the far-right personality hosted a guest on his show this week who suggested the Holocaust happened by accident, calling the interview “a disgusting and sadistic insult to all Americans.”

During Carlson’s two-hour sit-down with Darryl Cooper, a podcaster whom he said “may be the best and most honest popular historian in the United States,” Cooper claimed that Nazi Germany’s mass murder of Jews was an unintended consequence – something akin to poor planning instead of the methodical extermination that it actually was.

The Bulwark
ep 10, 2024 — IT WAS SHOCKING, although not surprising, to see Tucker Carlson praise the prominent Holocaust denier Darryl Cooper,

I can paste more...But we both know after watching the podcast he was not in any way denying or revising the Holocaust, he was citing a Nazi commandant's letters to Berlin.

Thanks for the correction. A few of those you quoted did call him a denier. I'd guess that their definition of what it takes to be a denier is a little looser than mine.

Now that you've posted a handful of the many responses from historians and outlets who critique Cooper, maybe you'll post a bunch of quotes from all of the reputable historians who think he's correct. Are there any?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

*pig vomit*

Hitler’s desire to colonize Ukraine, seize oil fields in the Caucasus, and destroy Communism were central goals laid out in Mein Kampf and elsewhere. So, thanks for telling us what… the entire western civilization knows?

Cooper’s claim that Churchill somehow provoked Hitler into turning west is a distortion of the spacetime continuum. Hitler invaded Poland first, and this is really going to blow some air up your skirt, knowing full well that Britain and France had made a pact to defend it. He wasn’t forced west by Churchill; he brought the West into the war by making moves that he knew would trigger war with it.

Also, just a reminder, Hitler signed a non-aggression pact with Stalin, temporarily securing his eastern flank so he could focus on defeating France and intimidating Britain. If Hitler had truly wanted to go directly east and leave the West alone, he could have done so, but he launched invasions of Norway, Denmark, the ‘Low Countries’, and France. That wasn't Churchill "pushing" the war; that was Hitler systematically dismantling European resistance before turning back east.

Cooper, and you now, are recasting Nazi aggression as some kind of reactive or accidental series of events. Hitler had a plan. He executed it deliberately and with purpose. Are you a Nazi apologist?

- Doc