WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

[Kishkumen]

She didn't say that--at least I can find no evidence of her saying this--but she would have been very close to right if she had.

[Kishkumen]

This thread warms the cockles of my historian's heart. It is great to see how misunderstandings of history really do have negative consequences, while a solid understanding of history is a decent guard against the pathogen of historical ignorance. It is too bad that conspiracy theorists and their theories seem to be impervious to these lessons. Still, it is absolutely imperative to correct the record, as many of you have here against Markk's version of Cooper's ideas.

[Gadianton]

What constitutes Holocaust denial could be a topic on its own. It doesn't really matter if it is or isn't, it's Nazi apologetics just the same. For what it's worth, a barometer for whether it is denial could be the reaction of Holocaust deniers themselves to Cooper's work. Are they outraged? Do they reject his scholarship as sloppy? I did about 2 minutes research here, but the only negative reaction I discovered from self-proclaimed Nazis was supporting the conspiracy theory that claims Hitler escaped to Argentina. Apparently, that's offensive, as in the narrative, Hitler went out with honor. Escape is the Ancient Aliens kind of theory that might get popular with QAnon and Fox Newsies.

Does cooper refer to the slaughter of Jews as the Holocaust? If not, if he talks around it and refuses to use the term, or qualifies it exceptionally, then a case could be made he is a denier. If he maintains 6 million Jews were intentionally killed, then maybe he isn't. It depends on what the word means. Obviously, the term is a hot one in culture wars. Does it have a technical meaning we can pinpoint? Does "Holocaust denier" instead refer to a broad alliance of Hitler fans? A topic that could be discussed, but it won't tell us much about WW2 history.

So far, Markk hasn't suggested anything Cooper adds to conventional history, aside from Jim Jones being a liberal. If Cooper were the greatest living historian (a guy without any credentials or real publications) per Tucker, there ought to be something out there he knows about that conventional history doesn't.

It sounds like Markk and Tucker like Cooper as a culture warrior for right-wing politics rather than for his historical monographs.

[Morley]

Start with watching the podcast and at least understand what I am talking about in regard to it.

You're assigning board members homework on a fringe theory that you're enamored with. You're not interested in discussing the whole podcast, just the part where Cooper presents the idea that the Holocaust was mostly the result of bureaucratic blundering. Even, in that part, you claim that Cooper himself is not making that case--he's just, for some unknown reason, randomly quoting an official whom he declines to name.

Cooper has no bona fides as a historian. You've pretty much demonstrated that you don't either. [By the way, it's clear that neither do I.] You love him anyway, and think that we should all be paying attention to both him and to you. Reputable historians are unanimous in their condemnations of Cooper's merde. That matters not to you--though you claim to have read widely and deeply.

Cooper's ramblings are not new. They echo established neo-Nazi propaganda. You think that's coincidental.

Where am I wrong?

[canpakes]

In 1939 the Germans were clearly persecuting the Jews, but it was not until 1941 and 1942, did the Germans start mass exterminations. Until the camps were built, again over 1000, the Nazis kept the Jews in ghettos and worked and starved them to death for the most part, when they were not beating and shooting them.

Markk, can you explain why the Nazis “kept the Jews in ghettos and worked and starved them to death for the most part, when they were not beating and shooting them”… but then felt stressed when they rounded them up and couldn’t starve them fast enough while stuffed into concentration camps?

Do you believe Cooper’s claim?

[Markk]

I read it when it came out. You apparently did not. You said a while back you read the WSJ and the NYTs....but oh well.

You keep asking me to opine to this question...

Well Morley, those news media interpretations that I have read, say that Cooper is a Holocaust denier.

Which is why I kept quoting this, and asking you where he denied the Holocaust.

This is the WSJ....

In the wake of Mr. Carlson’s recent interview with Darryl Cooper, an unabashed Holocaust denier,

The Democrat congress
As Jewish Members of Congress, we are appalled that Tucker Carlson hosted and promoted Nazi apologist and Holocaust denier Darryl Cooper on his podcast.

NBC
But Cooper has made clear that his intellectual project regarding World War II includes Holocaust revisionism.

Media Matters
Carlson’s increased GOP prominence has coincided with his descent to new levels of unhinged crackpottery: The latest edition of his eponymous program dabbles in Holocaust denial and presents “Zionist” financiers as a motive force behind World War II.

Political
Tucker Carlson may have reached a disturbingly new low when he hosted a two-hour podcast with Darryl Cooper, a Nazi apologist whom he called “the best and most honest popular historian in the United States.”

The Week
Sep 10, 2024 — ... Holocaust-denier Darryl Cooper on his new online platform.

CNN
The Biden administration is denouncing Tucker Carlson after the far-right personality hosted a guest on his show this week who suggested the Holocaust happened by accident, calling the interview “a disgusting and sadistic insult to all Americans.”

During Carlson’s two-hour sit-down with Darryl Cooper, a podcaster whom he said “may be the best and most honest popular historian in the United States,” Cooper claimed that Nazi Germany’s mass murder of Jews was an unintended consequence – something akin to poor planning instead of the methodical extermination that it actually was.

The Bulwark
ep 10, 2024 — IT WAS SHOCKING, although not surprising, to see Tucker Carlson praise the prominent Holocaust denier Darryl Cooper,

I can paste more...But we both know after watching the podcast he was not in any way denying or revising the Holocaust, he was citing a Nazi commandant's letters to Berlin.

Thanks for the correction. A few of those you quoted did call him a denier. I'd guess that their definition of what it takes to be a denier is a little looser than mine.

Now that you've posted a handful of the many responses from historians and outlets who critique Cooper, maybe you'll post a bunch of quotes from all of the reputable historians who think he's correct. Are there any?

Reputable is a hard word to corral given our biases, you even stated earlier when I suggested a outlet you only read or trusted, I don't recall the word you used, the WSJ and the NYT, I only have an account to the former....but I will search it, but I would say the support he gets within the podcast world is reputable. And even you conceded after listening to him; you very dogmatically asked who was saying such a thing that shows that those that actually listened to him understand he is not a Holocaust denier. And you have conceded as he asserted, the Germans were not prepared. And I will argue that in this case, he is not a revisionist either; he is just quoting known history.

I listened to a podcast this morning where Cooper explained his approach and why....I will try to find it on You Tube and you can listen to that portion of it, it is only about 3 or 4 minutes and I believe it would be helpful to our conversation.

[Morley]

Reputable is a hard word to corral given our biases

No, it's not. A reputable contractor would have demonstrated expertise and experience in contracting. He or she would be known by other contractors to be reliable. The same would be true for an electrician, musician, physician, or chemist.

Why you think a historian would be any different is a mystery to me.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

*disinformation*

She didn't say that--at least I can find no evidence of her saying this--but she would have been very close to right if she had.

Ah, thanks. I’ll take the disinformation down. I appreciate the correction.

- Doc

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Disinfo deleted

Dayyum. Russell M. Nelson could take a lesson from her on what makes a prophet accurate.......

Fyi, Kish pointed out the image was disinfo. As a result I deleted it and am letting you know it was some fakeass BS. My apologies.

- Doc

[Marcus]

...but I would say the support he gets within the podcast world is reputable...

Oh dear god.

...Reputable is a hard word to corral given our biases...

Given YOUR biases, apparently. Not for others.