WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

[Markk]

Where did cooper say that the holocaust was accidental....?

I didn’t say that he said this directly. But I’m asking for you to clarify what you believe Cooper’s extended point was about gas chamber use, or the Holocaust. What is ‘not ready’ implying?

You’ve been freely paraphrasing Cooper in this thread. You should be able to do so with the questions above.

Where did Cooper say that the Holocaust was accidental? You made that assertion.

I will also wait for you to show me where, and for your view, and I assume back up that the Ghettos were a permanent solution.

[Markk]

The irony

Yet Ceeboo Chap has registered to take part in a discussion board. And he says explicitly that he does not wish to "have discussions" on this board

Naah. Good try, but no cigar. I am asking a genuine question about the thread we are on. Try answering it.

Lol...And asking for someone thoughts is not? I wouldn't take what I wrote too seriously; for me it was just perfect timing of the irony of you two posts.

[canpakes]

I didn’t say that he said this directly. But I’m asking for you to clarify what you believe Cooper’s extended point was about gas chamber use, or the Holocaust. What is ‘not ready’ implying?

You’ve been freely paraphrasing Cooper in this thread. You should be able to do so with the questions above.

Where did Cooper say that the Holocaust was accidental? You made that assertion.

I will also wait for you to show me where, and for your view, and I assume back up that the Ghettos were a permanent solution.

You seem to be implying this with your discussion of ‘temporary solutions’. You’re free to tell me that I’m wrong. But you’ll need to clarify what you are referring to with your claim about the Nazis being unprepared for their plan to incarcerate or kill all of the Jews that they could find, or whichever ‘temporary solution’ that was implemented. What is the extended point derived from that claim?

And what, exactly, are you defending Cooper from? You seem unsure, here.

As for your statement about the ghettos, you’re confusing me with someone else, as I have made no claim about that subject.

[Chap]

And asking for someone thoughts is not?

Ceeboo started a thread in which he asked people to state their views. Then he said he did not want to take part in a discussion. So everybody else has to state their views, but Ceeboo won't say what his are. On a discussion board, that is weird.

I wouldn't take what I wrote too seriously;

Don't worry, you are not running much of a risk of that happening.

[Markk]

Where did Cooper say that the Holocaust was accidental? You made that assertion.

I will also wait for you to show me where, and for your view, and I assume back up that the Ghettos were a permanent solution.

You seem to be implying this with your discussion of ‘temporary solutions’. You’re free to tell me that I’m wrong. But you’ll need to clarify what you are referring to with your claim about the Nazis being unprepared for their plan to incarcerate or kill all of the Jews that they could find, or whichever ‘temporary solution’ that was implemented. What is the extended point derived from that claim?

And what, exactly, are you defending Cooper from? You seem unsure, here.

This is what you wrote:

Cakes: Cooper’s claim of an accidental Holocaust, and your defense of that claim.

Where did he make such a claim?

You then wrote...

Cakes
As for your statement about the ghettos, you’re confusing me with someone else, as I have made no claim about that subject.

This is what you wrote, and I believe twice, and then Morley asked me to answer it.

canpakes wrote: ↑Mon Jun 23, 2025 8:24 pm
Markk, you invoked my name in at least 5 previous posts within this thread, so I figure that you just missed my questions:

1. Can you explain why the Nazis “kept the Jews in ghettos and worked and starved them to death for the most part, when they were not beating and shooting them”… but then felt stressed when they rounded them up and couldn’t starve them fast enough while stuffed into concentration camps?

I replied

Markk: 1. I gave a response to question one of my post that you obviously missed. It was a temporary solution while the leadership, I guess primarily Himmler, Heydrich, and Hitler, figured out their options. If you watched the podcast or read the posts, according to Cooper, which I agree, Germany was not prepared for handling millions of Jews, POWs, and political prisoners collectively. This seems totally plausible to me, and I plan to read more about this. It is something I never thought much about before I heard his take on it.

You then replied...

Cakes: A ‘temporary solution’?

Here are some problems with this opinion, as I see it:

As I wrote, in regard to your clear problem with my assertion that it was a temporary solution, by default, having your "problem" with the Ghettos being a temporary solution, you must believe that it was a permanent solution to confine the Jews to Ghettos.

So either just say you did not think it out to well, and that indeed the Ghettos were a temporary measure for the soon to come final solution, or provide the reason why you think the Ghettos were the permanent solution.

[ceeboo]

Ceeboo started a thread in which he asked people to state their views.

Correct - Ceeboo did start a thread about the primary winner of NYC Mayoral race and offered a place for people to share their thoughts.

Then he said he did not want to take part in a discussion.

Incorrect - Ceeboo replied to someone saying that he probably would not take part in the thread discussion.

So everybody else has to state their views

Incorrect - Nobody has to state any views on that particular thread, or any thread for that matter. Stating views on a thread is a voluntary thing. Did you have to state your views in this post? No, you decided to state your views and did so voluntarily - Even though you probably should not have.

but Ceeboo won't say what his are

I was more interested in learning what the D's on the board thought about Zohran, the D that won.

[canpakes]

You seem to be implying this with your discussion of ‘temporary solutions’. You’re free to tell me that I’m wrong. But you’ll need to clarify what you are referring to with your claim about the Nazis being unprepared for their plan to incarcerate or kill all of the Jews that they could find, or whichever ‘temporary solution’ that was implemented. What is the extended point derived from that claim?

And what, exactly, are you defending Cooper from? You seem unsure, here.

This is what you wrote:

Cakes: Cooper’s claim of an accidental Holocaust, and your defense of that claim.

Where did he make such a claim?

You then wrote...

Cakes
As for your statement about the ghettos, you’re confusing me with someone else, as I have made no claim about that subject.

This is what you wrote, and I believe twice, and then Morley asked me to answer it.

canpakes wrote: ↑Mon Jun 23, 2025 8:24 pm
Markk, you invoked my name in at least 5 previous posts within this thread, so I figure that you just missed my questions:

1. Can you explain why the Nazis “kept the Jews in ghettos and worked and starved them to death for the most part, when they were not beating and shooting them”… but then felt stressed when they rounded them up and couldn’t starve them fast enough while stuffed into concentration camps?

I replied

Markk: 1. I gave a response to question one of my post that you obviously missed. It was a temporary solution while the leadership, I guess primarily Himmler, Heydrich, and Hitler, figured out their options. If you watched the podcast or read the posts, according to Cooper, which I agree, Germany was not prepared for handling millions of Jews, POWs, and political prisoners collectively. This seems totally plausible to me, and I plan to read more about this. It is something I never thought much about before I heard his take on it.

You then replied...

Cakes: A ‘temporary solution’?

Here are some problems with this opinion, as I see it:

As I wrote, in regard to your clear problem with my assertion that it was a temporary solution, by default, having your "problem" with the Ghettos being a temporary solution, you must believe that it was a permanent solution to confine the Jews to Ghettos.

So either just say you did not think it out to well, and that indeed the Ghettos were a temporary measure for the soon to come final solution, or provide the reason why you think the Ghettos were the permanent solution.

I’m getting worried that you may be having a stroke. : D

To keep you from further spiraling into nonsensical babble, let’s regroup around these questions:

1. What makes either the ghettos or the camps a ‘temporary solution’, and to what, exactly? You’ve introduced and used this phrase; explain it.

2. What assertion or opinion of Cooper’s compelled you to enter this discussion on his behalf?

[Markk]

This is what you wrote:


Where did he make such a claim?

You then wrote...



This is what you wrote, and I believe twice, and then Morley asked me to answer it.



I replied



You then replied...



As I wrote, in regard to your clear problem with my assertion that it was a temporary solution, by default, having your "problem" with the Ghettos being a temporary solution, you must believe that it was a permanent solution to confine the Jews to Ghettos.

So either just say you did not think it out to well, and that indeed the Ghettos were a temporary measure for the soon to come final solution, or provide the reason why you think the Ghettos were the permanent solution.

I’m getting worried that you may be having a stroke. : D

To keep you from further spiraling into nonsensical babble, let’s regroup around these questions:

1. What makes either the ghettos or the camps a ‘temporary solution’, and to what, exactly? You’ve introduced and used this phrase; explain it.

2. What assertion or opinion of Cooper’s compelled you to enter this discussion on his behalf?

Cakes:1. What makes either the ghettos or the camps a ‘temporary solution’, and to what, exactly? You’ve introduced and used this phrase; explain it.

Lol...I already told you why.

You wrote...

Cakes: A ‘temporary solution’?

Here are some problems with this opinion, as I see it:

If you have problems with it, then that means you have another opinion, which can only be it was not a temporary measure, but a permanent one.

Answer the question? You made a big deal about me not answering, then when I did you disagree saying you had problems with my answer....so tell us why corralling the Jews, into ghettos was somehow permanent?

In regard to Cooper, you made the claim that he claimed the Holocaust was and accident, and that I supported that claim....where did he make the claim, and where did I support him making that claim.

If you really want to regroup and explore and learn from the history that is out there, just say you got sloppy, or were late to the conversation and didn't really understand the context, or you were just wrong in your two assertions so we can move on (which is the high road).... or just answer the questions.

[canpakes]

1. What makes either the ghettos or the camps a ‘temporary solution’, and to what, exactly? You’ve introduced and used this phrase; explain it.

Lol...I already told you why.

Link to it, if so.

You wrote...

A ‘temporary solution’?

Here are some problems with this opinion, as I see it:

- Killing people is not a temporary solution. It’s pretty permanent.
- The Nazis were already using mobile gas vans and killing centers as early as 1939.
- Aktion Reinhard - the plan offering a ‘Final Solution’ - was created in 1941. This was not referred to as a ‘final solution’ because Nazis were putting people in camps for holiday, right?
- Many trainloads of prisoners were offloaded directly into gassing rooms upon arrival. There was no time to even consider needing to feed them.

If you have problems with it, then that means you have another opinion, which can only be it was not a temporary measure, but a permanent one.

I find the assignment of ‘temporary’ to be an interesting choice in your part - given the end result being the same - but I’m much more interested in what the ‘solution’ part of that phrase is all about. Can you explain that?

Answer the question? You made a big deal about me not answering, then when I did you disagree saying you had problems with my answer....so tell us why corralling the Jews, into ghettos was somehow permanent?

I haven’t made that claim.

Your lightheadness may be returning. Unless you can link to me saying this. Please do, if so.

In regard to Cooper, you made the claim that he claimed the Holocaust was and accident, and that I supported that claim....where did he make the claim, and where did I support him making that claim.

I’m trying to figure out what compelled you to enter the conversation on his behalf, defending him. What did Cooper allegedly say that you felt required defending?

If you really want to regroup and explore and learn from the history that is out there, just say you got sloppy, or were late to the conversation and didn't really understand the context, or you were just wrong in your two assertions so we can move on (which is the high road).... or just answer the questions.

I like how whenever people ask you to clarify what you’re saying, you blame them for not understanding you and then claim that they’re being sloppy or are wrong, usually about something that they never asserted. : D

So, what compelled you to talk about temporary solutions? And what is it that Cooper said that you felt needed to be defended, against the liberal hordes at DM?

[Physics Guy]

Naturally the Nazis took some time to get their mass murder program running efficiently. Neither Cooper nor anyone else gets any credit for pointing this out, since no one has ever supposed otherwise. That it was a technical challenge was always obvious to everyone, including the Nazis. They were confident that they could make it work somehow, and they did.

The idea that the Nazi authorities were truly surprised to have custody of so many people, and just didn’t know what to do with them all, may seem plausible to anyone who imagines trying to run a continental war themselves, as a vacation project. “Oh, shoot, there are all these prisoners in our camps now! Dang! I just did not see that coming.” After all, screw-ups like that happen in SimCity all the time.

Yeah, it seems realistic that Hitler and all his generals and functionaries were caught out like that—if your understanding of World War 2 amounts to sticking a few popular books onto the assumptions of a 21st century American civilian. The German General Staff were not civilians, however. They were expert professionals at logistics who were all on at least their second large war. They were all about anticipating and planning things like this. It was their job, and they were good at it, and there were a lot of them.

There is no chance at all that they didn’t know well in advance exactly how this would work out. And the problem with taking amateur historians seriously when they tell a seemingly plausible story isn’t that the amateurs will merely fail to put all the right umlauts in their footnotes. It’s that they’ll make ridiculous howling mistakes like this one.