WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

He’s arguing the Nazis didn’t to want initially kill the Jews, but as the war evolved they were either forced to liquidate them due to resource constraints, or they died due to supply lines being cut so starvation and disease took over. He doesn’t have the balls to come out and say what he’s really getting at, which is he believes the numbers of Jews killed in WWII were greatly exaggerated by the Jews in order to use it as a cudgel to gain control over the goyim.

Nazi apologists put the figure of Jewish death at ~350,000.

- Doc

I'm not, I am arguing it was not clear and there were mixed views. I stated this in some of my first posts here. In '41, when they went East, it is clear that they let Russian POWs die, and that was a clear plan by some Nazis, and not so by others. Hitler wanted Jews dead from early on, he said so, but there were political reasons he could not just do so....it was complicated in that context as history shows.

You are showing a real weakness to go down the road that I am supporting the murder of Jews as less than it was. That shows you are just losing the argument and unwilling to come to grips with the whys of the Holocaust and how it evolved.

Your arguments speak for themselves. When asked, repeatedly, why are you so interested in the topic you go silent or you dip into plausible deniability.

We’re all aware of Hitler’s statements about Jews, how the war unfolded, and how Hitler went about enacting his final solution. It’s not like he couldn’t have let them go. You know how migrants from all-over-the-“F” walk to Europe? He could’ve just marched them out or trucked them to Turkey or to a port and put 'em on a cargo ship to the Levant or Turkey. Or Africa. Or wherever.

But, Hitler didn't want Jews spreading globally and reinforcing what he imagined as a "worldwide Jewish conspiracy." He wanted a final solution, and, in my opinion, always intended to kill the vast majority of Jews he could find as he found emigration as simply pushing the ‘problem’ down the road.

So. Again. What’s up? Why are you soft pedaling Nazi apologist arguments?

- Doc

[Marcus]

...You are correct, Cooper did not mention gassing, or to others assertion being stressed....he said this....

Yeah. Well, and the next thought that comes into their head is that, oh, you're saying Churchill was the chief villain, therefore his enemies, Adolf Hitler and so forth, were Stalin, the protagonists. Right. They're the good guys. If you think he's a villain, that's not the case. That's not what I'm saying. Germany, look, they put themselves into a position, and Adolf Hitler is chiefly responsible for this, but his whole regime is responsible for it, that when they went into the east in 1941, they launched a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth that they were going to have to handle. They went in with no plan for that, and they just threw these people into camps, and millions of people ended up dead. There you have letters as early as July, August, 1941, from commandants of these makeshift camps that theyre setting up for these millions of people who were surrendering or people theyre rounding up. So its two months after, a month or two after Barbarossa was launched, and theyre writing back to the high command in Berlin saying, we can't feed these people.

[00:49:42]
We don't have the food to feed these people. And one of them actually says, rather than wait for them all to slowly starve this winter, wouldn't it be more humane to just finish them off quickly now? And so this is like two months into the invasion. Right? And my view on this, I argue with my zionist interlocutors about this all the time with regard to the current war in Gaza. Look, man, maybe you, as the Germans, you felt like you had to invade to the east. Maybe you thought that Stalin was such a threat or that if he launched a surprise attack and seized the oil fields in Romania, that you would now not have the fuel to actually respond and you'd be crippled and all of Europe would be under threat. And whatever it was, whatever it was, that, like, maybe you thought you had to do that, but at the end of the day, you launched that war with no plan to care for the millions and millions of civilians and prisoners of war that were going to come under your control, and millions of people died because of that. You can look at it and say, well, yeah.

It is important to me, that if you want a review, we start here, with your first false assertion, which ironically. more or less buy now. One of the "arguments" I am asserting is that up until Barbarossa and a while beyond, the Nazis were mixed with the answer for the Jewish Question. History just isn't clear here....which is what Cooper is saying, they had no clear plan going east, and because of that millions died, which is just the truth.

Cooper states his view, by saying it was his view, that they had no clear plan which is just true, they were exploring many different avenues at the time Barbarossa was launched. Keep in mind and this is critical, Barbarossa was launched in June of '41, and yet the Wannsee conference was not held until six months later in early '42 where senior staff met to nail down the "Final Solution" to the Jewish Question.

[bolding removed]
I just saw that Markk's post to Morley included a reposting of the section of the Cooper transcript that includes the part that's been shown to completely untrue. Markk has posted this lie multiple times in this thread, after it's been shown to be a lie. Markk has no credibility.

[Kishkumen]

Markk has no credibility.

Yup!

[canpakes]

It seems that with the conversation going on for over a week, Markk hasn’t been able to explain what point he’s arguing. It’s absolutely odd.

He’s arguing the Nazis didn’t to want initially kill the Jews, but as the war evolved they were either forced to liquidate them due to resource constraints, or they died due to supply lines being cut so starvation and disease took over. He doesn’t have the balls to come out and say what he’s really getting at, which is he believes the numbers of Jews killed in WWII were greatly exaggerated by the Jews in order to use it as a cudgel to gain control over the goyim.

Nazi apologists put the figure of Jewish death at ~350,000.

- Doc

I do get that he’s making an excuse for Cooper’s ‘accidental holocaust’ insinuation, but it just seems like an odd campaign for him to engage with.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

He’s arguing the Nazis didn’t to want initially kill the Jews, but as the war evolved they were either forced to liquidate them due to resource constraints, or they died due to supply lines being cut so starvation and disease took over. He doesn’t have the balls to come out and say what he’s really getting at, which is he believes the numbers of Jews killed in WWII were greatly exaggerated by the Jews in order to use it as a cudgel to gain control over the goyim.

Nazi apologists put the figure of Jewish death at ~350,000.

- Doc

I do get that he’s making an excuse for Cooper’s ‘accidental holocaust’ insinuation, but it just seems like an odd campaign for him to engage with.

It’s part of a broader strategy by the radical right to expose the Jews and Jewish global control. Jews are broadly viewed by people like Cooper to be leftists and behind the degeneracy that ails the world, such as sexual liberation, transgenderism, and so forth; it’s cultural Marxism, In other words. Lots and lots of white Christian nationalists have lapped this up. As it turns out, whatever Nazi sympathizers that were low crawling around throughout the post-WW2 decades have found surprisingly fertile ground with the Christians, descendants of the Confederates, and young people, in particular young men.

Markk knows what he’s doing, but leaving enough wiggle room for plausible deniability. Same with the now “reformed” Ajax18, and the poster formerly known as Droopy Dog****.

As an aside, when I was making the rounds and meeting my wife’s family in Utah, I was introduced to an absolute pig crap of a man that married one of her aunts; they were living in Brigham City. That was the first time where I was exposed to these arguments. For whatever reason, when he found out I was retired military, he decided to soft sell his fascism to me, and he began to talk about the very things Markk is talking about now. Unsurprisingly his bookshelf was full of WW2 history. Lots and lots of Nazi-centric books. He also talked about how WW2 wasn’t a legitimate war, and that the only legitimate war we’ve waged was the Revolutionary war. Think about it. He didn’t think the unionists had a right to fight to keep the Union together.

- Doc

[Markk]

I'm not, I am arguing it was not clear and their were mixed views. I stated this in some of my first posts here. In 41, when they went East, it is clear that they let Russian POW's die, and that was a clear plan by some Nazis, and not so by others. Hitler want Jews dead from early on, he said so, but there were political reasons he could not just do so....it was complicated in that context as history shows.

You are showing a real weakness to go down the road that I am supporting the murder of Jews as less than it was. That show you are just losing the argument and unwilling to come to grips with the whys of the Holocaust and how it evolved.

Your arguments speak for themselves. When asked, repeatedly, why are you so interested in the topic you go silent or you dip into plausible deniability.

We’re all aware of Hitler’s statements about Jews, how the war unfolded, and how Hitler went about enacting his final solution. It’s not like he couldn’t have let them go. You know how migrants from all-over-the-“F” walk to Europe? He could’ve just marched them out or trucked them to Turkey or to a port and put em on a cargo ship to the Levant or Turkey. Or Africa. Or wherever.

But, Hitler didn't want Jews spreading globally and reinforcing what he imagined as a "worldwide Jewish conspiracy." He wanted a final solution, and, in my opinion, always intended to kill the vast majority of Jews he could find as he found emigration as simply pushing the ‘problem’ down the road.

So. Again. What’s up? Why are you soft pedaling Nazi apologist arguments?

- Doc

Lol, How is telling historical truths soft pedaling anything here? We basically agree on most of this. You even alluded to Madagascar. If everyone agrees why do they keep asking questions and stating I, and by default you, are wrong? I can't even keep up with the different questions. You act like I am the only one keeping this thread alive.

Was Hitler a Zionist? No way in my opinion, he was a sick murderer. But early on, and up until '41-'42 supported expulsion, even if making it very difficult. It is just a historical fact.

He could have shot every last one of them also, but he didn't. It was an evolution of the Jewish question to the final solution, which you even championed in one of your first posts here and said as it fell apart, he then ordered the mass executions. Maybe you did not know what you were typing, and just cut and pasted it, but I don't believe that. You wrote....

In short, Expulsion > Ghettoization > Mass shootings, > Industrialized murder. War radicalizes people. Hitler was already of the mind to “annihilate” European Jews, so as his plans fell apart (like the Madagascar plan) he simply ordered them destroyed and built extermination sites to destroy them at an industrial scale.

All this other blather is irrelevant and apologetic.

That is just history and if I am soft pedaling, you are doing the same exact thing. You are being accurate with the history.

[Markk]

He’s arguing the Nazis didn’t to want initially kill the Jews, but as the war evolved they were either forced to liquidate them due to resource constraints, or they died due to supply lines being cut so starvation and disease took over. He doesn’t have the balls to come out and say what he’s really getting at, which is he believes the numbers of Jews killed in WWII were greatly exaggerated by the Jews in order to use it as a cudgel to gain control over the goyim.

Nazi apologists put the figure of Jewish death at ~350,000.

- Doc

I do get that he’s making an excuse for Cooper’s ‘accidental holocaust’ insinuation, but it just seems like an odd campaign for him to engage with.

Where did Cooper say accidental Holocaust? That is just a lie. Can you cut and paste from the transcript where he said that?

Yeah. Well, and the next thought that comes into their head is that, oh, you're saying Churchill was the chief villain, therefore his enemies, Adolf Hitler and so forth, were Stalin, the protagonists. Right. They're the good guys. If you think he's a villain, that's not the case. That's not what I'm saying. Germany, look, they put themselves into a position, and Adolf Hitler is chiefly responsible for this, but his whole regime is responsible for it, that when they went into the east in 1941, they launched a war where they were completely unprepared to deal with the millions and millions of prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth that they were going to have to handle. They went in with no plan for that, and they just threw these people into camps, and millions of people ended up dead. There you have letters as early as July, August, 1941, from commandants of these makeshift camps that theyre setting up for these millions of people who were surrendering or people theyre rounding up. So its two months after, a month or two after Barbarossa was launched, and theyre writing back to the high command in Berlin saying, we can't feed these people.

[00:49:42]
We don't have the food to feed these people. And one of them actually says, rather than wait for them all to slowly starve this winter, wouldn't it be more humane to just finish them off quickly now? And so this is like two months into the invasion. Right? And my view on this, I argue with my zionist interlocutors about this all the time with regard to the current war in Gaza. Look, man, maybe you, as the Germans, you felt like you had to invade to the east. Maybe you thought that Stalin was such a threat or that if he launched a surprise attack and seized the oil fields in Romania, that you would now not have the fuel to actually respond and you'd be crippled and all of Europe would be under threat. And whatever it was, whatever it was, that, like, maybe you thought you had to do that, but at the end of the day, you launched that war with no plan to care for the millions and millions of civilians and prisoners of war that were going to come under your control, and millions of people died because of that. You can look at it and say, well, yeah.

[Markk]

...You are correct, Cooper did not mention gassing, or to others assertion being stressed....he said this....



It is important to me, that if you want a review, we start here, with your first false assertion, which ironically. more or less buy now. One of the "arguments" I am asserting is that up until Barbarossa and a while beyond, the Nazis were mixed with the answer for the Jewish Question. History just isn't clear here....which is what Cooper is saying, they had no clear plan going east, and because of that Millions died, which is just the truth.

Cooper states his view, by saying it was his view, that they had no clear plan which is just true, they were exploring many different avenues at he time Barbarossa was launched. Keep in mind and this is critical, Barbarossa was launched in June of 41, and yet the Wannsee conference was not held until six months later in early 42 where senior staff meet, to nail down the "Final Solution" to the Jewish Question.

[bolding removed]
I just saw that Markk's post to Morley included a reposting of the section of the Cooper transcript that includes the part that's been shown to completely untrue. Markk has posted this lie multiple times in this thread, after it's been shown to be a lie. Markk has no credibility.

What part? He spoke generally, on a podcast, for two paragraphs about this. If you are talking about SS Sturmbannführer (a major) Rolf-Heinz Höppner's letter on 16 July 1941, what did the letter to Eichmann say?

You quoted this if I remember correctly.... what did that letter say, please paste the letter and we can compare it to your proof text, and what Cooper said in the podcast. You did read it right? If you haven't read it, and you can't find it, I can paste it here for you.

Recently, Darryl Cooper, in a podcast with Tucker Carlson, made statements that grossly misrepresent the German Nazi regime’s actions during Operation Barbarossa in 1941. Cooper claimed that the Nazis were "unprepared" to handle millions of prisoners of war and political dissidents, suggesting their brutality was a result of poor planning. This statement is patently false. The German invasion of the Soviet Union was long-planned and included genocidal strategies of dealing with the local Jewish population not as a response to logistical challenges, but as an ideological one.

Yad Vashem Chairman Dani Dayan remarked:

"Tucker Carlson and his guest Darryl Cooper engaged in one of the most repugnant forms of Holocaust denial of recent years. These far-fetched conspiracy theories are not only dangerous and malevolent, they are antisemitic."

Cooper attempts to prove his mistaken point by quoting a letter supposedly from a German Wehrmacht officer, where he indicates that the murder of civilians and POWS in the USSR was out of “humane” concerns due to insufficient food supplies. This, too, is patently false. In reality, the letter by SS officer Rolf-Heinz Höppner on 16 July 1941, advocated for the murder of all the Jews in the western region of occupied Poland, called by the Nazis the Warthegau. Misrepresenting this as anything but intentional mass murder distorts history and downplays the Nazis responsibility for the Holocaust and for their other crimes.

Head of Yad Vashem's International Institute for Holocaust Research Prof. Dan Michman states:

"Mr. Cooper isn't known for having done any scholarly research on Nazism and the Holocaust, and his statements in this interview clearly demonstrate his ignorance."

It is crucial to uphold the truth of these events. Approximately six million Jews, including some four million killed near their homes in Eastern Europe, were murdered as part of the Nazis’ systematic genocide called by them “The Final Solution to the Jewish Question.” Any attempt to distort these historical facts or explain this away sanitizes these genocidal crimes and dishonors the memory of the victims.

[canpakes]

I do get that he’s making an excuse for Cooper’s ‘accidental holocaust’ insinuation, but it just seems like an odd campaign for him to engage with.

Where did Cooper say accidental Holocaust? That is just a lie. Can you cut and paste from the transcript where he said that? I

“They went in with no plan for that, and they just threw these people into camps, and millions of people ended up dead.”

Oops. I hate it when that happens.

At least they seem to have worked out things after 1941 with a better planned and more humane holocaust, but Cooper didn’t get into that part.

[Markk]

Then listen. A lot has been said, a lot has been discussed, and you among others have waffled on your views and understandings of what Cooper said and the rabbit trail conversations that have been created in this thread.

I am not here to follow you marching orders, you act like you are the Red Queen here, or Lol Jersey Girl. You insinuated in a negative way that ..." you buy this stuff is incredible, Markk."

You are correct, Cooper did not mention gassing, or to others assertion being stressed....he said this....

It is important to me, that if you want a review, we start here, with your first false assertion, which ironically. more or less buy now. One of the "arguments" I am asserting is that up until Barbarossa and a while beyond, the Nazis were mixed with the answer for the Jewish Question. History just isn't clear here....which is what Cooper is saying, they had no clear plan going east, and because of that millions died, which is just the truth.

Cooper states his view, by saying it was his view, that they had no clear plan which is just true, they were exploring many different avenues at he time Barbarossa was launched. Keep in mind and this is critical, Barbarossa was launched in June of '41, and yet the Wannsee conference was not held until six months later in early '42 where senior staff meet, to nail down the "Final Solution" to the Jewish Question.

To my knowledge, no one is saying that the specific Nazi plans about the Jews did not evolve--and tragically so. That's pretty well documented historically.

What's your next gripe?

Your knowledge in limited here then, and I am not griping I am trying to have a discussion. However you yourself wrote this..."You know, from all the history you’ve read, that the Nazis had the extermination planned from the beginning. Cooper is suggesting otherwise."

Then you correctly wrote...

You’re right to correct me. The Nazi plans for dealing with the Jews evolved over time, becoming more and more radicalized as the war progressed. However, none of their plans had anything to do with being humane, as Cooper suggested. Gassing someone is not a humane solution to the problem of shooting them.

If you have been reading what I, and Doc, has written, expulsion was very real up until '41 and even beyond in a few cases.....I read somewhere the other day that around 66k Jews were allowed to deport from Germany in Hitler's early reign.

It doesn't matter Morley, it is an interesting dig, and it is history, and it is not like we are all experts here, there is so much to learn. You don't have to agree with Cooper, I certainly don't on everything, but if you listened to his podcasts, and gave him a chance, you would understand what he spoke in a different light.