The Trolley Problem--Nemo the Mormon is back

[sock puppet]

You’re welcome to dismiss Oliver Cowdery’s letter to his brother, of course. I tend to believe him. He is after all one of the 3 witnesses.

More to it than that. Oliver and Emma were not willing to accept that Joseph had taken Fanny as a plural wife and/or that she had been sealed to him. There are no first hand witnesses and Fanny's family members followed the saints out to Utah. There are other 'moving parts' in there also.

Cowdery later came back into the church.

Regards,
MG

Yea. Sort of like the Astronomer's CEO caught on the kiss cam last week at the Coldplay concert. He should have just claimed to be a Mormon and that the HR director he was with was his second, polygamous wife. Yea, that's the ticket. If he had, he would already have a gaggle of Mormons flocking to follow him as a prophet sent from Mormon God. Obviously that CEO is not as good a spin-meister as Joe Smith was.

[MG 2.0]

More to it than that. Oliver and Emma were not willing to accept that Joseph had taken Fanny as a plural wife and/or that she had been sealed to him. There are no first hand witnesses and Fanny's family members followed the saints out to Utah. There are other 'moving parts' in there also.

Cowdery later came back into the church.

Regards,
MG

Yea. Sort of like the Astronomer's CEO caught on the kiss cam last week at the Coldplay concert. He should have just claimed to be a Mormon and that the HR director he was with was his second, polygamous wife. Yea, that's the ticket. If he had, he would already have a gaggle of Mormons flocking to follow him as a prophet sent from Mormon God. Obviously that CEO is not as good a spin-meister as Joe Smith was.

Whatever you say...it must be true.

Regards,
MG

[huckelberry]

I believe the joke here is that Joseph Smith is the author of the Book of Mormon, and Smith liked to include elements of his own life into the stories. The joke being that he included the affair with 14 year old Fanny Alger.

And before you say that joke is distasteful, think about how distasteful Smith’s actions themselves were…

As with most stories from church history this one has more to it. I would simply suggest that folks do additional research in this regard. I did years ago, and I'm comfortable with all of the 'moving parts'. If you're going to call the whole thing a dirty and nasty affair you are then obligated to support that accusations from multiple sources.

That takes work

Regards,
MG

I suppose more sources would be necessary to be sure just how clean or dirty that barn was. There may not be a lot of sources for the details but maybe more than the story made up for humor.

I feel like mentioning that though a 14 year old got involved with Joseph Smith the girl in the barn and I guess straw was a little older.

MG, do you want us to document straw or did your hand waving mean to point to something?

[sock puppet]

As with most stories from church history this one has more to it. I would simply suggest that folks do additional research in this regard. I did years ago, and I'm comfortable with all of the 'moving parts'. If you're going to call the whole thing a dirty and nasty affair you are then obligated to support that accusations from multiple sources.

That takes work

Regards,
MG

I suppose more sources would be necessary to be sure just how clean or dirty that barn was. There may not be a lot of sources for the details but maybe more than the story made up for humor.

I feel like mentioning that though a 14 year old got involved with Joseph Smith the girl in the barn and I guess straw was a little older.

MG, do you want us to document straw or did your hand waving mean to point to something?

Perhaps MG 2.0 could show us (such as point us to where in the Joseph Smith Papers or state/county records) where we could see the marriage certificate for the marriage between Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger? Or even if MG 2.0 gives us a link to where Joseph Smith's scribes noted the marriage in 1832 (when Smith was caught in the barn with Fanny Alger)?

Now it is fascinating that apologists try to retrofit The Principle revelation (D&C 132) back to 1832 or before, in their attempts to "legitimize" Joseph Smith having sex in the barn with Fanny Alger.

Feb 9, 1831:

22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.

23 And he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and if he repents not he shall be cast out.

May 7, 1831:

15 And again, verily I say unto you, that whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man.

16 Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation;

1832: Sex in the barn with Fanny Alger

Aug 1835:

Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again ... According to the custom of all civilized nations, marriage is regulated by laws and ceremonies: therefore we believe, that all marriages in this church of Christ of Latter Day Saints, should be solemnized in a public meeting, or feast, prepared for that purpose1835 edition explains"

Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of the Latter Day Saints: "Carefully Selected from the Revelations of God, and Compiled by Joseph Smith Junior, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, Frederick G. Williams, -[Presiding Elders of Said Church.]- Proprietors"

July 1838:

“Joseph Smith wrote and published 20 questions which are daily and hourly asked by all classes of people whilst we are traveling. One question was, ‘Do the Mormons believe in having more wives than one?’” (Elders’ Journal 1 [November 1837]: 28) “Joseph answered, ‘No, not at the same time. But they believe, that if their companion dies, they have a right to marry again. But we disapprove of the custom, which has gained in the world, and has been practised among us, to our great mortification, of marrying in five or six week it is, or even in two or three months, after the death of a companion. We believe that due respect ought to be had to the memory of the dead, and the feelings of both friends and children.’”

Dec 16, 1839:

Some have reported that we not only dedicated our property, but likewise our families to the Lord, and Satan taking advantage it of this has transfigured it into lasciviousness, a community of wives, which things are an abomination in the sight of God. When we consecrate our property to the Lord, it is to administer to the wants of the poor and needy according to the laws of God, and when a man consecrates or dedecates his wife and children to the Lord, he does not give them to his brother or to his neighbor; which is contrary to the law of God, which says, ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife.’ ‘He that looketh upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already in his heart.’ Now for a man to consecrate his property, his wife and children to the Lord is nothing more nor less than to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit the widows and fatherless, the sick and afflicted; and do all he can to administer to their relief in their afflictions, and for himself and his house to serve the Lord. In order to do this he and all his house must be virtuous and shun every appearance of evil. Now if any person, has represented any thing otherwise than what we now write they have willfully misrepresented us.”

Sep 1, 1842:

Inasmuch as the public mind has been unjustly abused through the fallacy of Dr. Bennett’s letters, we make an extract on the subject of marriage, showing the rule of the church on this important matter. The extract is from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and is the only rule allowed by the church. ‘All legal contracts of marriage made before a person is baptized into this church, should be held sacred and fulfilled. Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.’

Aug 5, 1843:

“Walked up and down the street with Scribe and gave instructions to try those who were preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives on this Law. Joseph forbids it and the practice thereof. No man shall have but one wife.”

[Editor’s note: the rest of page 117 is left blank after the exact quote above.]

Feb 1, 1844:

“City of Nauvoo, Thursday, Feb. 1, 1844. — Notice: As we have lately been credibly informed that an Elder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, by the name of Hiram Brown, has been preaching polygamy, and other false and corrupt doctrines, in the county of Lapeer, State of Michigan : This is to notify him and the Church in general, that he is cut off from the Church, for his iniquity ; and he is farther notified to appear at the Special Conference, on the 6th of April next, to make answer to these charges. [signed] Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, Presidents of said, Church.”

May 26, 1844:

God knows, then, that the charges against me are false. I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can. This new holy prophet [William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man dares not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this. William Law ... swears that I have committed adultery. I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are—whether it will be a curse or blessing to me. I am quite tired of the fools asking me. A man asked me whether the commandment was given that a man may have seven wives; and now the new prophet has charged me with adultery. I never had any fuss with these men until that Female Relief Society brought out the paper against adulterers and adulteresses. ... What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.”

More than 170 years after the fact, the LDS church essay includes

Fragmentary evidence suggests that Joseph Smith acted on the angel’s first command by marrying a plural wife, Fanny Alger, in Kirtland, Ohio, in the mid-1830s.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... o?lang=eng

So MG 2.0, Joseph Smith was a serial liar, or not married to more than one wife at a time (i.e., Emma from 1827 to 1844)--rendering his sex with Fanny Alger in the barn to be a "dirty, nasty, filthy scrape" as Oliver Cowdery described it.

In 1836, Fanny Alger married Solomon Custer. Imagine that! It was recorded at the time. https://bhroberts.org/records/psWfCb-7L ... ember_1836 Makes one wonder why neither Joseph Smith, his scribes or the county records show any marriage of Joseph Smith to Fanny Alger.

So, MG 2.0. Here's a multiple choice question for you: Was Joseph Smith (a) a serial liar, (b) an adulterer, or (c) both? So many choices!

[MG 2.0]

I suppose more sources would be necessary to be sure just how clean or dirty that barn was. There may not be a lot of sources for the details but maybe more than the story made up for humor.

I feel like mentioning that though a 14 year old got involved with Joseph Smith the girl in the barn and I guess straw was a little older.

MG, do you want us to document straw or did your hand waving mean to point to something?

Perhaps MG 2.0 could show us (such as point us to where in the Joseph Smith Papers or state/county records) where we could see the marriage certificate for the marriage between Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger? Or even if MG 2.0 gives us a link to where Joseph Smith's scribes noted the marriage in 1832 (when Smith was caught in the barn with Fanny Alger)?

Now it is fascinating that apologists try to retrofit The Principle revelation (D&C 132) back to 1832 or before, in their attempts to "legitimize" Joseph Smith having sex in the barn with Fanny Alger.

Feb 9, 1831:

22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.

23 And he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and if he repents not he shall be cast out.

May 7, 1831:

15 And again, verily I say unto you, that whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man.

16 Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation;

1832: Sex in the barn with Fanny Alger

Aug 1835:

Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again ... According to the custom of all civilized nations, marriage is regulated by laws and ceremonies: therefore we believe, that all marriages in this church of Christ of Latter Day Saints, should be solemnized in a public meeting, or feast, prepared for that purpose1835 edition explains"

Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of the Latter Day Saints: "Carefully Selected from the Revelations of God, and Compiled by Joseph Smith Junior, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, Frederick G. Williams, -[Presiding Elders of Said Church.]- Proprietors"

July 1838:

“Joseph Smith wrote and published 20 questions which are daily and hourly asked by all classes of people whilst we are traveling. One question was, ‘Do the Mormons believe in having more wives than one?’” (Elders’ Journal 1 [November 1837]: 28) “Joseph answered, ‘No, not at the same time. But they believe, that if their companion dies, they have a right to marry again. But we disapprove of the custom, which has gained in the world, and has been practised among us, to our great mortification, of marrying in five or six week it is, or even in two or three months, after the death of a companion. We believe that due respect ought to be had to the memory of the dead, and the feelings of both friends and children.’”

Dec 16, 1839:

Some have reported that we not only dedicated our property, but likewise our families to the Lord, and Satan taking advantage it of this has transfigured it into lasciviousness, a community of wives, which things are an abomination in the sight of God. When we consecrate our property to the Lord, it is to administer to the wants of the poor and needy according to the laws of God, and when a man consecrates or dedecates his wife and children to the Lord, he does not give them to his brother or to his neighbor; which is contrary to the law of God, which says, ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife.’ ‘He that looketh upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already in his heart.’ Now for a man to consecrate his property, his wife and children to the Lord is nothing more nor less than to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit the widows and fatherless, the sick and afflicted; and do all he can to administer to their relief in their afflictions, and for himself and his house to serve the Lord. In order to do this he and all his house must be virtuous and shun every appearance of evil. Now if any person, has represented any thing otherwise than what we now write they have willfully misrepresented us.”

Sep 1, 1842:

Inasmuch as the public mind has been unjustly abused through the fallacy of Dr. Bennett’s letters, we make an extract on the subject of marriage, showing the rule of the church on this important matter. The extract is from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and is the only rule allowed by the church. ‘All legal contracts of marriage made before a person is baptized into this church, should be held sacred and fulfilled. Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.’

Aug 5, 1843:

“Walked up and down the street with Scribe and gave instructions to try those who were preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives on this Law. Joseph forbids it and the practice thereof. No man shall have but one wife.”

[Editor’s note: the rest of page 117 is left blank after the exact quote above.]

Feb 1, 1844:

“City of Nauvoo, Thursday, Feb. 1, 1844. — Notice: As we have lately been credibly informed that an Elder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, by the name of Hiram Brown, has been preaching polygamy, and other false and corrupt doctrines, in the county of Lapeer, State of Michigan : This is to notify him and the Church in general, that he is cut off from the Church, for his iniquity ; and he is farther notified to appear at the Special Conference, on the 6th of April next, to make answer to these charges. [signed] Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, Presidents of said, Church.”

May 26, 1844:

God knows, then, that the charges against me are false. I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can. This new holy prophet [William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man dares not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this. William Law ... swears that I have committed adultery. I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are—whether it will be a curse or blessing to me. I am quite tired of the fools asking me. A man asked me whether the commandment was given that a man may have seven wives; and now the new prophet has charged me with adultery. I never had any fuss with these men until that Female Relief Society brought out the paper against adulterers and adulteresses. ... What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.”

More than 170 years after the fact, the LDS church essay includes

Fragmentary evidence suggests that Joseph Smith acted on the angel’s first command by marrying a plural wife, Fanny Alger, in Kirtland, Ohio, in the mid-1830s.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... o?lang=eng

So MG 2.0, Joseph Smith was a serial liar, or not married to more than one wife at a time (i.e., Emma from 1827 to 1844)--rendering his sex with Fanny Alger in the barn to be a "dirty, nasty, filthy scrape" as Oliver Cowdery described it.

In 1836, Fanny Alger married Solomon Custer. Imagine that! It was recorded at the time. https://bhroberts.org/records/psWfCb-7L ... ember_1836 Makes one wonder why neither Joseph Smith, his scribes or the county records show any marriage of Joseph Smith to Fanny Alger.

So, MG 2.0. Here's a multiple choice question for you: Was Joseph Smith (a) a serial liar, (b) an adulterer, or (c) both? So many choices!

Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy was shrouded in secrecy from the very beginning. The actions you've given documentation to, though difficult to reconcile, may well have been undertaken in obedience to what he believed was a divine command, in a context of immense pressure and a gradual unfolding of doctrine.

You've provided a very detailed response. The important thing to remember was that not only was polygamy shrouded in secrecy right up until the Expositor, but that history itself is always in the making. What happened did happen. It's a question of why. God's command or a secret society of sexual deviants based on covenants and secret signs.

When looked at in the whole it is difficult to believe that Joseph engaged in all the secrecy, which you have documented, simply to have sex with multiple women. And to boot, quite a few of these women were pregnant at the time of marriages/sealings and/or they were older and as would be said at the time. "Less than comely".

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

And for another dose of nonsense, well doused in misogynistic sexism, here's our troll:

...When looked at in the whole it is difficult to believe that Joseph engaged in all the secrecy, which you have documented, simply to have sex with multiple women. And to boot, quite a few of these women were pregnant at the time of marriages/sealings and/or they were older and as would be said at the time. "Less than comely".

[Rivendale]

And for another dose of nonsense, well doused in misogynistic sexism, here's our troll:

...When looked at in the whole it is difficult to believe that Joseph engaged in all the secrecy, which you have documented, simply to have sex with multiple women. And to boot, quite a few of these women were pregnant at the time of marriages/sealings and/or they were older and as would be said at the time. "Less than comely".

I think this is a byproduct of Mormonism on the part of MG. Women are treated like expiration dates on Milk containers. Heber C Kimball mentioned missionaries taking all the pretty ones not leaving anything for the Bretheren. Why in the world would a secretive practice of polygamy continue well after Joseph's death if it weren't a group of deviants promoting it. It doesn't occur to MG that some people's sexual attraction to women are not restricted to an age group. This is straight from Brian Hales apologetic nonsense and that comment was from the pits of misogyny hell akin to spiritual autism.

[Philo Sofee]

In Joseph Smith's original draft of the Book of Mormon, Nephi was actually caught in the barn committing adultery with Laban's 14 year old daughter, but Oliver Cowdery felt that was too racy and sensational of a plotline, so they decided to go with the theft and murder.

Could you link to your source?

Regards,
MG

Do you honestly like to pretend being so thick MG? Seriously?

[Morley]

When looked at in the whole it is difficult to believe that Joseph engaged in all the secrecy, which you have documented, simply to have sex with multiple women. And to boot, quite a few of these women were pregnant at the time of marriages/sealings and/or they were older and as would be said at the time. "Less than comely".

MG is right. It's difficult to believe that any man would ever lie or engage in secrecy to have sex with multiple women.

[MG 2.0]

And for another dose of nonsense, well doused in misogynistic sexism, here's our troll:

...When looked at in the whole it is difficult to believe that Joseph engaged in all the secrecy, which you have documented, simply to have sex with multiple women. And to boot, quite a few of these women were pregnant at the time of marriages/sealings and/or they were older and as would be said at the time. "Less than comely".

You didn't actually address my post. You are trolling me around. Address the actual content of the post please. Oh, by the way, how would you have rephrased what I said? Is there a better word for "pregnant'? Is there another way of saying that the women were not physically attractive? After all, I'm assuming that those that say Joseph's motivations for polygamy had to do with his desire to be women. Right?

If so, why pregnant women and those that were physically less attractive?

Regards,
MG