YouTuber Alyssa Grenfell Has Cost The Church 2.4 Million Dollars

[MG 2.0]

MG, you often argue for two different things, while treating them as if they are inseparable:

1. An undeniable witness of God's love and His presence in their lives.
2. A belief that the Book of Mormon is actual history.

I’d imagine that If someone left the Church because they couldn’t buy into the second item, it doesn’t mean that the first item can’t remain true for them.

I agree. I don't know much about Alyssa Grenfell. I've watch one or two of her videos. Did she retain her belief/faith in Jesus Christ?

In the case of Lynn Wilder she appears to have remained a Christian after leaving BYU and the LDS faith. This is an example of where agency to choose reigns supreme. In my opinion God loves ALL His children and will bless them according to their faith. I don't think He automatically curses and/or judges someone unworthy if they transition from one faith community to another. Or no faith community at all. I do think that God is saddened and disappointed, however, if one of His children comes out in open rebellion against Him or His Son. But judging that is in His wheelhouse, not mine.

Alyssa Grenfell, along with others, are doing a disservice by leading people away from their covenants made with the Lord. Whether these cases/folks are examples of "Judge them not, for they know not what they do" or something other than that...I don't know. And again, it's not my place to lay final judgement on anyone. Even some folks on this board who are quite irritating .

Regards,
MG

Kurfluffel on "judgement. Bolded and underlined section above is what I said. I'm not going to get into a semantical argument. I also stick by everything I've said in this thread.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Has she or has she not opened up in regards to the things which I have mentioned?

Regards,
MG

I was not asking about what Alyssa may or may not have "opened up" about. Rather, about whether you were being judgmental, since you had declared that it is not your place to be so. You did understand that that was what I was asking, right?

Should I assume, since you didn't actually answer my question, that you mean that the comment to which I was responding was not judgmental on your part, regardless of whether or not she opened up in regards to the things which you mentioned?

In other words,

To me it's a question of how deeply her previous testimony entered into her heart and mind. She initially had issues with gender roles, marriage expectations, and personal autonomy, as well as her own experiences dealing with shame, indoctrination, and struggles with mental health while a member. There is more to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and its theology/doctrine than these personal grievances.

is not a case of you being judgmental about her testimony, and/or the various issues she had? You were just questioning "how deeply her previous testimony entered into her heart and mind" in a totally non-judgmental way?

Sorry to have to spell it out, but you have left me quite unsure if you understood my question.

Added some more non-judgmental "stuff":

It is fairly well documented that many of the younger people that are leaving the LDS Church are doing so primarily for reasons having to do with societal influences and reasons of 'bodily autonomy'. If those same people spent time looking seriously into Mormon Theology and thought about the teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Plan of Salvation/Exaltation rather than 'caving in' to outside influences, I think more of them would find their way IN the church rather than outside the church. This is my personal observation and opinion.

Yes, MG is being judgmental while stating he isn't judgmental. That's great missionary work for the lurkers. I think they may be beginning to understand that MG disrupts and provokes because he has a personal fetish for sadistic trolling, and he just uses the LDS church as a vehicle.. It does them a major disservice that he presents himself as a believing member, proselytizing on the LDS church's behalf, because he makes them look mean-spirited and vindictive.

[malkie]

I was not asking about what Alyssa may or may not have "opened up" about. Rather, about whether you were being judgmental, since you had declared that it is not your place to be so. You did understand that that was what I was asking, right?

Should I assume, since you didn't actually answer my question, that you mean that the comment to which I was responding was not judgmental on your part, regardless of whether or not she opened up in regards to the things which you mentioned?

In other words,

is not a case of you being judgmental about her testimony, and/or the various issues she had? You were just questioning "how deeply her previous testimony entered into her heart and mind" in a totally non-judgmental way?

Sorry to have to spell it out, but you have left me quite unsure if you understood my question.

Added some more non-judgmental "stuff":

Yes, MG is being judgmental while stating he isn't judgmental. That's great missionary work for the lurkers. I think they may be beginning to understand that MG disrupts and provokes because he has a personal fetish for sadistic trolling, and he just uses the LDS church as a vehicle.. It does them a major disservice that he presents himself as a believing member, proselytizing on the LDS church's behalf, because he makes them look mean-spirited and vindictive.

Followed by his TTOC™ when called out.

[MG 2.0]

I was not asking about what Alyssa may or may not have "opened up" about. Rather, about whether you were being judgmental, since you had declared that it is not your place to be so. You did understand that that was what I was asking, right?

Should I assume, since you didn't actually answer my question, that you mean that the comment to which I was responding was not judgmental on your part, regardless of whether or not she opened up in regards to the things which you mentioned?

In other words,

is not a case of you being judgmental about her testimony, and/or the various issues she had? You were just questioning "how deeply her previous testimony entered into her heart and mind" in a totally non-judgmental way?

Sorry to have to spell it out, but you have left me quite unsure if you understood my question.

Added some more non-judgmental "stuff":

Yes, MG is being judgmental while stating he isn't judgmental. That's great missionary work for the lurkers. I think they may be beginning to understand that MG disrupts and provokes because he has a personal fetish for sadistic trolling, and he just uses the LDS church as a vehicle.. It does them a major disservice that he presents himself as a believing member, proselytizing on the LDS church's behalf, because he makes them look mean-spirited and vindictive.

Here she goes again ..

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Yes, MG is being judgmental while stating he isn't judgmental. That's great missionary work for the lurkers. I think they may be beginning to understand that MG disrupts and provokes because he has a personal fetish for sadistic trolling, and he just uses the LDS church as a vehicle.. It does them a major disservice that he presents himself as a believing member, proselytizing on the LDS church's behalf, because he makes them look mean-spirited and vindictive.

Followed by his TTOC™ when called out.

As I often do I would simply suggest that lurkers and others dropping in go back and take the time to read my comments in context. The critics will ALWAYS defend the critic. They can do no wrong.

Regards,
MG

[malkie]

Followed by his TTOC™ when called out.

As I often do I would simply suggest that lurkers and others dropping in go back and take the time to read my comments in context. The critics will ALWAYS defend the critic. They can do no wrong.

Regards,
MG

I totally agree with your first point - for anyone who is visiting the board to read, and to discover the back and forth between the (mostly) non-professional posters on both sides of the LDS critic/defender divide, I recommend following interesting comments using the † link after "username wrote" to see the entire original comment. In some (many?) cases it is worthwhile to follow back more than once.

It's worthwhile looking at what is presented as fact, what is presented as opinion, and what is presented "for the sake of argument".

In addition, there are "formal" aspects to a discussion. For sure, some of us do better than others at quoting, at selectively quoting from a long comment, at indicating when we are using a partial quote, and at faithfully representing arguments that we disagree with, so that we do not bias and distort the discussion.

I disagree with your second point. If you pay attention, you will see that the critics are far from uniform in their opinions. They may disagree with each other less often than they disagree with defenders - yourself included - but that's only natural, as the gap between defenders in general and critics in general is almost bound to be greater than the gap between individual critics. But I note the implication of unfairness in your comment and its tone.

[I Have Questions]

Alyssa Grenfell, along with others, are doing a disservice by leading people away from their covenants made with the Lord.

You are accusing Alyssa Grenfell of proselytising people away from their current religious attendance and therefore doing them a disservice. Whilst your Church sends out tens of thousands of young to spend every single day, full time, doing the exact same thing. You yourself did the exact same thing - trying to convince people to leave their existing belief system, to join another. So you are being highly hypocritical in criticising Alyssa. Blindly hypocritical. Is your problem more that she (a woman) is better at it than you were/are? Have you expressed to your leaders that the sending out of missionaries to convince people to forgo their existing belief system and covenants in favour of SLC LDS ones is doing a disservice? Or is this just yet another example of you treating as special, the belief system and operating practices within which you were born and raised, just because it’s the belief system you were born and raised in?

[sock puppet]

Alyssa Grenfell, along with others, are doing a disservice by leading people away from their covenants made with the Lord.

You are accusing Alyssa Grenfell of proselytising people away from their current religious attendance and therefore doing them a disservice. Whilst your Church sends out tens of thousands of young to spend every single day, full time, doing the exact same thing. You yourself did the exact same thing - trying to convince people to leave their existing belief system, to join another. So you are being highly hypocritical in criticising Alyssa. Blindly hypocritical. Is your problem more that she (a woman) is better at it than you were/are? Have you expressed to your leaders that the sending out of missionaries to convince people to forgo their existing belief system and covenants in favour of SLC LDS ones is doing a disservice? Or is this just yet another example of you treating as special, the belief system and operating practices within which you were born and raised, just because it’s the belief system you were born and raised in?

MG 2.0 is "like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness." Matthew 23:23

[Moksha]

Here she goes again ..

Regards,
MG

Tell her you've been commanded to fire your muskets.

[MG 2.0]

As I often do I would simply suggest that lurkers and others dropping in go back and take the time to read my comments in context. The critics will ALWAYS defend the critic. They can do no wrong.

Regards,
MG

I disagree with your second point. If you pay attention, you will see that the critics are far from uniform in their opinions. They may disagree with each other less often than they disagree with defenders - yourself included - but that's only natural, as the gap between defenders in general and critics in general is almost bound to be greater than the gap between individual critics. But I note the implication of unfairness in your comment and its tone.

I mean...and I think you knew it...that I meant that critics, such as Alyssa Grenfell, can do no wrong in the sense that for whatever reason they left the church it COULDN'T have been for the basic/human drive reasons that I stated earlier.

Regards,
MG