Senior free labour provider dies whilst mowing a church lawn

[Marcus]

I suppose I would challenge Kishkumen’s sentiments (which aren’t unreasonable) is whether or not this person’s choice to leave his family and to spend his retirement funds and time on maintaining the grounds of an entity that is using the proceeds of that labour to build up a trillion dollar fund that isn’t being used for what it is claimed it is for. Plus is it free will if it comes as a result of manipulation or brainwashing? For instance, does Kishkumen feel the same about the people that made the free will choice to drink the Kool Aid and committed suicide? (an extreme example I know, but it demonstrates the point)

I feel like we have entered that conversation in which we ask whether car makers are morally responsible for all fatal car accidents. I mean, they did build and sell the damn cars, and those things are dangerous.

No we have not. Accidents can happen to professionals, yes, but that doesn't mean you don't follow best practices in attempting to avoid them. The LDS church does not follow best practices. Rather, it mis-uses volunteer labor to do things that require professional services.

To insist that it was 'just an accident' when elderly people without experience, training, or qualifications are required to provide professional services and the inevitable happens is irresponsible.

[Kishkumen]

No we have not. Accidents can happen to professionals, yes, but that doesn't mean you don't follow best practices in attempting to avoid them. The LDS church does not follow best practices. Rather, it mis-uses volunteer labor to do things that require professional services.

To insist that it was 'just an accident' when elderly people without experience, training, or qualifications are required to provide professional services and the inevitable happens is irresponsible.

Professional services? LOL! OK. I bush-hogged the fields of my family’s horse farm as a teen, including a hillside field along the lower reaches of the Blue Ridge Mountains. I don’t recall getting classes in “best practices.” You’re straining pretty hard to make this into a big injustice on the part of the LDS Church. I am open to being informed regarding this senior missionary’s lack of prior experience riding a lawnmower. I am sad he died, and it may be that the Church will come out of this providing mandatory riding lawnmower classes for all senior service missionaries. If that prevents further accidents like this one, I am all for it.

[I Have Questions]

No we have not. Accidents can happen to professionals, yes, but that doesn't mean you don't follow best practices in attempting to avoid them. The LDS church does not follow best practices. Rather, it mis-uses volunteer labor to do things that require professional services.

To insist that it was 'just an accident' when elderly people without experience, training, or qualifications are required to provide professional services and the inevitable happens is irresponsible.

Professional services? LOL! OK. I bush-hogged the fields of my family’s horse farm as a teen, including a hillside field along the lower reaches of the Blue Ridge Mountains.

Yes, that’s an exact parallel. Apart from the dynamic between you and your family being different to the dynamic between Church and member. Apart from the fact you didn’t pay for the privilege out of your retirement funds. Apart from the fact that you didn’t die. Had this old man died whilst mowing the lawns of his own family’s ranch, you’d have a point. But he didn’t. So you don’t.

[MG 2.0]

This is a disgusting piece of justification from the mentalgymnast. This was not an "accident." It was an event that happened because of very bad practices on the part of the LDS church. It was entirely avoidable, and it is the fault of this cult masquerading as a religion.

This post is quite absurd! Certainly, the incident involving the elderly missionary was an accident; to imply anything different is sheer incompetence!

What is the source of all this animosity within you? What has happened to you that makes you seem like someone others would prefer to avoid?

This elderly man likely passed away while engaging in what he believed was working for the Lord! Surely, you recognize that accidents can occur even during missions, correct?

I honestly don’t think you will talk any sense into her.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

I feel like we have entered that conversation in which we ask whether car makers are morally responsible for all fatal car accidents. I mean, they did build and sell the damn cars, and those things are dangerous.

No we have not. Accidents can happen to professionals, yes, but that doesn't mean you don't follow best practices in attempting to avoid them. The LDS church does not follow best practices. Rather, it mis-uses volunteer labor to do things that require professional services.

To insist that it was 'just an accident' when elderly people without experience, training, or qualifications are required to provide professional services and the inevitable happens is irresponsible.

When a ride on lawn mower flips over, killing the operator, that’s not an accident. It’s the result of using the ride on mower outside of its safe operating parameters. If the deceased had been trained on those safe operating parameters then he’s been reckless and it’s his own recklessness that caused the death. If the deceased had not been trained on those safe operating parameters, then that’s criminal negligence on the part of the people in charge of operating the site on which he was employed as a volunteer. Next time you’re passing a garden machinery distributor go and watch the ride on mower display. See how many just spontaneously flip over.

The other factor to consider is that ride on mowers can be fitted with roll-over protective structure (ROPS) ‘roll bars’ to protect the operator in a case where the equipment is pushed beyond its safe operating limits. You seem them on dune buggies and open top sports cars. Did the ride on mower this man was using to mow slopes (with the obvious inherent risk of a roll) have roll bars fitted? If not, why not?

[MG 2.0]

No we have not. Accidents can happen to professionals, yes, but that doesn't mean you don't follow best practices in attempting to avoid them. The LDS church does not follow best practices. Rather, it mis-uses volunteer labor to do things that require professional services.

To insist that it was 'just an accident' when elderly people without experience, training, or qualifications are required to provide professional services and the inevitable happens is irresponsible.

When a ride on lawn mower flips over, killing the operator, that’s not an accident.

How many times had this good brother mowed the same stretch of lawn safely without an accident? Ten? Twenty? Thirty?

An accident is something that happens unexpectedly. What I hear you and others doing here is calling this good man stupid.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

When a ride on lawn mower flips over, killing the operator, that’s not an accident.

Here is the rest of the quote that you snipped…

It’s the result of using the ride on mower outside of its safe operating parameters. If the deceased had been trained on those safe operating parameters then he’s been reckless and it’s his own recklessness that caused the death. If the deceased had not been trained on those safe operating parameters, then that’s criminal negligence on the part of the people in charge of operating the site on which he was employed as a volunteer.

How many times had this good brother mowed the same stretch of lawn safely without an accident? Ten? Twenty? Thirty?

He’s only been serving since April. So it could be only his first or second time. The articles don’t say.

An accident is something that happens unexpectedly.

I agree. So if a man gets into his car, blind drunk, drives around at 100mph and loses control, causing himself to run off a cliff and die, that’s not an accident because it is reasonable to expect that something bad might happen. Likewise, if you use a ride on mower on an incline outside of the safe operating procedures, you can reasonably expect something bad might happen. So not an accident. Ride on mowers do not flip over spontaneously; you have to operate them in a way they are not supposed to be operated in. But even with that, if the ride on mower is flipped by the operator's actions, roll bars would help to protect the operator from being crushed.

The fact that the man died tells us something negligent has happened. Either in the provision of the equipment and/or the provision of training for the operator, or in the operator's actions.

[Gadianton]

If the lawn mower rolled, that means there was a relatively steep slope to be mowed. Anything beyond a 10 degree slope and the Church was negligent . Now, if this guy was going full bore and then slamming hard into a turn for fun then it's hard to blame anyone but himself. But take a look at the Manti Temple. That's one hell of a grade, and the Brethren like this sort of design. An edifice on a hilltop with grass flowing down from it. I'm sure there are plenty of chapels that approximate this architecture with the building at the high point and grass flowing down for effect. Very dangerous to mow. But who cares? Faithful seniors are a dime a dozen and the apologists don't care if they die, only about the Church's image. (Hint: refusing to accept responsibility for mistakes almost never helps with public image, and so it's not only deplorable behavior but it doesn't even achieve the intended goal)

[Rivendale]

No we have not. Accidents can happen to professionals, yes, but that doesn't mean you don't follow best practices in attempting to avoid them. The LDS church does not follow best practices. Rather, it mis-uses volunteer labor to do things that require professional services.

To insist that it was 'just an accident' when elderly people without experience, training, or qualifications are required to provide professional services and the inevitable happens is irresponsible.

Professional services? LOL! OK. I bush-hogged the fields of my family’s horse farm as a teen, including a hillside field along the lower reaches of the Blue Ridge Mountains. I don’t recall getting classes in “best practices.” You’re straining pretty hard to make this into a big injustice on the part of the LDS Church. I am open to being informed regarding this senior missionary’s lack of prior experience riding a lawnmower. I am sad he died, and it may be that the Church will come out of this providing mandatory riding lawnmower classes for all senior service missionaries. If that prevents further accidents like this one, I am all for it.

You are seriously comparing a teenager working on family farm to a multi billion dollar organization allowing volunteers to pay to work for them? Good god.

[Kishkumen]

Yes, that’s an exact parallel. Apart from the dynamic between you and your family being different to the dynamic between Church and member. Apart from the fact you didn’t pay for the privilege out of your retirement funds. Apart from the fact that you didn’t die. Had this old man died whilst mowing the lawns of his own family’s ranch, you’d have a point. But he didn’t. So you don’t.

Allow me to elaborate. I am not jumping on a mower and doing risky crap if I have never done it before. What do you know about this guy? Are you telling me that you know he was inexperienced with driving mowers? You see, my recollection of service missions is that these folks usually volunteer in areas where they have experience. At least, that was true for my relatives who did this sort of thing. So, what I am saying is that I grew up with such experience, and so I might feel comfortable volunteering to do something like that. My guess is that this fellow made an error in judgment. Maybe he was hot and tired. In any case, he died doing what he found to be meaningful service, I suppose. For us to sit here and try to make something out of this against the LDS Church, as though this guy is a poor, miserable victim of an evil corporation really does a disservice to who he actually was in this situation: a devoted believer who found meaning in volunteering his service to God.

In any case, I am with everyone in hoping that future accidents of this kind can be averted by better practices. Heaven knows I don't want to see more losses of this kind, but I find the attitude prevailing here to be weirdly vampiric in its apparent misuse of this man's memory to get at the LDS Church.