Mudslide slams into Provo LDS church

[Gadianton]

How much God intervenes in the world of nature when things happen 'by nature', I don't know. It may happen at times.

If I were to comb through your many posts, do you think I would find any examples of those times when God's providence supersedes nature?

[MG 2.0]

Isn't that a bit circular? Would anybody disagree? Could you provide an example of an event that isn't obviously natural, along with the consequences?

Dean, I’ve heard many a faith promoting anecdote about how prayer caused the rains to come, or the rains to stop. Then there’s the great tale of the seagulls and the crickets. How the seagulls came just in the nick of time in answer to prayers. Yet all this time those events were simply coincidental with acts of Mother Nature. Who knew… Although I would note that acknowledging that acts of nature, including human nature, are simply out of God’s control, renders the notion of prayer seeking His intervention somewhat pointless. It was good of MG to point out the futility of all those wasted prayers and fasting sessions. It makes me wonder what purpose blessing the food or anointing the sick does, if Mother Nature will do whatever she wants whilst God stands there, powerless.

I think, as I said in my last post, that God may intervene at His own discretion in the affairs of the natural world. I don't think that He intervenes every time someone offers up a prayer. That would disrupt a world in which we are to live by a degree of faith. A world of opposition. Not knowing everything but knowing enough.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

How much God intervenes in the world of nature when things happen 'by nature', I don't know. It may happen at times.

If I were to comb through your many posts, do you think I would find any examples of those times when God's providence supersedes nature?

I have no idea. But I do think that God's providence CAN supersede the natural workings of nature. After all, He's God, right? (If you were to believe in Him anyway. )

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

From 2023

“On behalf of the Intermountain West Water Management Council as well as our faithful members living in potential flood areas, please, no more prayers for moisture. Enough is enough!” a Church spokesperson pleaded during a press conference from what was once a dry area of the Great Salt Lake. “If we don’t stop praying, we will be going to church on Sundays in rafts and kayaks.”

Perhaps in the case in the OP, the members' prayers were too effective and caused the mud slide.

[MG 2.0]

As I've mentioned earlier, it seems as though you and Wang have taken it upon yourselves to work together as a 'tag team'. Both of you following me around and responding with 'fibber!' without actually engaging in and/or answering relevant questions is really not that entertaining, if that is your intent. Huckelberry and others are, I would imagine, tired of the same ol', same ol'. Come out of your protective cocoon and engage in some kind of productive fashion/way rather than doing the 'troll' thing or the 'fibber' thing. I'm sure you have thought about some of the things that I bring up and ask questions about, right? Unfortunately, you rarely actually engage except for the expected/predicted canned responses consisting of some garden variety of personal attack.

You CAN change your ways, Marcus! Bring Wang along with you. For that matter, invite IHQ. All he generally does is ask question upon question without actually engaging with questions that I might bring up during a conversation that are relevant to the discussion.

Regards,
MG

I have been involved in Mormon apologetics for a decent amount of time.

Were you ever an apologist like Philo and Shulem? If not, you have always been a critic?

Nothing you have ever presented on this board is compelling.

I have no reason to think otherwise from what I have read from you.

If I were an investigator and was watching the flow of your apologetic responses regarding Mormonism and its truth claims I would not be persuaded.

But you are not an investigator. You are a critic.

It follows the same template in almost every single discussion. When cornered with overwhelming evidence you either vaporize into a ghost and vanish...

I don't think that is true. There ARE times when I lose interest, or I can see things are going the ad hominem route that I will back off or leave. Sometimes I come to a point where I think it's a waste of my time. I'll grant you that.

As I have said before, every single Mormon truth claim favors the critic and rather than accept that you attempt to defend the indefensible but in drive by fashion with insults veiled as moving parts.

I would expect that you would say this and maybe even feel this way. The fact that you see God and/or religion as "indefensible" demonstrates that you may have a closed mind. Rivendale, I think you've been here long enough to see the insults and ad hominem that have come my way. As it is, I try to be respectful most of the time. There are times, however, when I have called a spade a spade. I have no regrets in doing so.

What I said in the post section you quoted I stand by as I do with a majority of my posts. The 'fibber' and 'troll' thing are not contested by anyone else...I have to stick up for what I believe to be the truth. And I have.

Regards,
MG

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Fibber,

Can you give us a few examples where you were less inclined to refer to Mother Nature?

I am becoming more and more disinclined to having a conversation with you, Wang. Constant usage of the designation of "fibber" does not lend itself to civil discussion. Especially when each time you're doing it you are simply lying.

Fibber MG,

If you don't want people to call you Fibber, maybe just stop fibbing? How many times were you caught using AI after promising not to use AI? How many times have you been caught misusing sources? How many times have you been caught in lie after lie after lie?

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but nobody here takes you seriously because of your constant dishonesty and personal attacks.

Fibber MG, that's some great missionary work.

[MG 2.0]

Fibber MG...

I will endure, it seems. On the other hand, you have been caught in some serious lying and have never come forth to admit to the fact. You said you knew me in real life (untrue) and you said that you know, somehow, that I am not the Assistant Clerk in charge of finances in my ward. Which is a blatant lie. I am the Finance Clerk in my ward. In fact, I have some catching up to do.

Regards,
MG

[Rivendale]

I have been involved in Mormon apologetics for a decent amount of time.

Were you ever an apologist like Philo and Shulem? If not, you have always been a critic?

Nothing you have ever presented on this board is compelling.

I have no reason to think otherwise from what I have read from you.

If I were an investigator and was watching the flow of your apologetic responses regarding Mormonism and its truth claims I would not be persuaded.

But you are not an investigator. You are a critic.

It follows the same template in almost every single discussion. When cornered with overwhelming evidence you either vaporize into a ghost and vanish...

I don't think that is true. There ARE times when I lose interest, or I can see things are going the ad hominem route that I will back off or leave. Sometimes I come to a point where I think it's a waste of my time. I'll grant you that.

As I have said before, every single Mormon truth claim favors the critic and rather than accept that you attempt to defend the indefensible but in drive by fashion with insults veiled as moving parts.

I would expect that you would say this and maybe even feel this way. The fact that you see God and/or religion as "indefensible" demonstrates that you may have a closed mind. Rivendale, I think you've been here long enough to see the insults and ad hominem that have come my way. As it is, I try to be respectful most of the time. There are times, however, when I have called a spade a spade. I have no regrets in doing so.

What I said in the post section you quoted I stand by as I do with a majority of my posts. The 'fibber' and 'troll' thing are not contested by anyone else...I have to stick up for what I believe to be the truth. And I have.

Regards,
MG

Bring some substantial authentic conversations to the table without playing gotcha. I have been called a few names in this forum and for the most part I own it because I can get off the rails at times. Snapple can make a guy irritable. Is it Mormonism that creates this giant wall of defensiveness? It seems like it does perhaps own it and address it may be therapeutic. This infinite loop of your a troll I'm a troll seems to be powered by past behavior why not own it because from the 30,000 foot view it appears that way.

[I Have Questions]

As a reminder, this is what the thread is about.

In another example of God’s displeasure with the SLC LDS Church…

Crews continued cleanup efforts at the Latter-day Saints church on South Slate Canyon Drive in Provo, where most of the damage occurred. The church was covered in up to four feet of mud after the debris slid down the Buckley Draw Fire's burn scar on Wednesday.

A microburst of heavy rain saturated the burn scar, causing debris to rush down the hillside and into the roadway and the side of the church.

Why didn’t the Holy Ghost step up with some inspiration when the Church’s property department were in the planning stage? “Hey guys, don’t build in the likely path of a mud slide”.

Please can we stop facilitating MG’s efforts at dragging threads off topic…

[MG 2.0]

As a reminder, this is what the thread is about.

In another example of God’s displeasure with the SLC LDS Church…

Why didn’t the Holy Ghost step up with some inspiration when the Church’s property department were in the planning stage? “Hey guys, don’t build in the likely path of a mud slide”.

Please can we stop facilitating MG’s efforts at dragging threads off topic…

As recently as the last page I was on topic until some others blew things up. That picture is a muddy mess!! There, back on topic. Keep it that way?

Regards,
MG