YouTuber Alyssa Grenfell Has Cost The Church 2.4 Million Dollars

[Marcus]

...so you "safely make the conjecture" that suits the narrative that you favour, although you have provided no evidence...

The sums up the Mental Gymnast's main approach. It's so intellectually dishonest that it's difficult to believe he's seriously putting it forward as legitimate argument. That's why I still think he's just trolling--disruption and provocation are his only goals.

[I Have Questions]

The early sealings where associated with the introduction of plural marriage. After the Fanny Alger incident I would thing Emma was not too keen on Joseph taking other wives. Emma threw Fanny out not long after she and Oliver made the observation of Joseph and Fanny in the barn. One might safely make the conjecture that Joseph not would be obliged or feel it safe to propose to Emma and ask her that she be one of the first sealings. There was a bit of 'stuff' going on there. She would likely have refused. Without a doubt. Late, she was amenable.

There’s a lot of untruth and baseless assertion in the above post. Joseph wasn’t involved in an incident with Fanny Alger. He was caught having sex with her in the barn. Fanny wasn’t a plural wife, she was an affair. Joseph didn’t get the notion about plural wives until 1841 when he was living with George Harris and took a shine to his wife, Lucinda. Chances to have sex with her were few and far between, so he cleared the way by sending him away “on a mission”. At that point he’d created a situation where he was living and being intimate with more than one wife. Neither Fanny nor Lucinda were marriages or sealings.

As far as Joseph not feeling “obliged” to propose to his wife that he have more affairs, because she might object…the staggering stupidity of the argument smacks everybody in the face. Well. Almost everybody. The point being made is that a man doesn’t have to tell his wife something if he thinks she’ll react badly to it. Better to do it in secret behind her back. What kind of a person can seriously put that forward as a valid and reasoned apologetic argument for Joseph carrying on with women behind his wife’s back? It might be suggested that the argument can only come from someone who is keeping things secret from his own wife, anyone else would see it as ridiculous.

Ask yourself, would you trust Joseph Smith with your wife for months on end whilst you are absent on a full time mission that Joseph ordered you to go on? Would you trust him to look after your 14 year old daughter, in his house, for an extended, unsupervised, period?

[I Have Questions]

Does the church frown on fornication, sodomy, abortion on demand, and adultery? Would any one of these fall under the category of "bodily autonomy" which has been brought up in this thread? Among many in the current progressive culture in the West these 'sins' are not sins. They are a 'human right'.

The church sees it differently.

No, the Church does not see it differently. The Church, unless things have changed dramatically since yesterday, acknowledges that humans have the right to choose fornication, sodomy, abortion, and adultery. They are indeed human rights within the laws of the land.

The general population does not have to comply with what a niche religious sect opines about as “sin”. Especially a niche religious sect that does not practice what it preaches when it thinks it can get away with it, and which has been shown time and again to change its mind about what a sin is or isn’t. Added to that, Mormon men are obsessed with trying to subjugate women and control their thoughts and deeds. Why is that?

[malkie]

Bonus questions for MG.

The next morning Joseph visited the Kimball home. "[He explained] the principle of Celestial marrage...After which he said to me [Helen], ‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.[‘] This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward.

Remembering the Wives of Joseph Smith: Helen Mar Kimball

• Do you know of any other occasion on which a Mormon prophet has promised someone "your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred"?
• Look out!! Hypothetical ahead!! Is that the kind of promise a true prophet is entitled to make, "this step" being entering into celestial marriage with the prophet?
  I have to say that, for me, it all seems rather self serving, and the promise seems rather broad.

[malkie]

In my post I failed to add a word that makes a big difference in what I wrote:



malkie, I did read your response but I am not seeing anything that puts a hole in anything I said.

Regards,
MG

Of course you're not! You're just not producing evidence, as signaled by your use of suppositions.

You're also failing to respond to both hints and direct questions. Let me try again:

• Given your extensive use of conjecture and suppositions - in other words, non-factuals, or "hypotheticals" - is it OK for other people, including me, to also use them? Or do you still hold that as a valid criticism?
• Could Joseph not have been sealed to Emma before he took and was sealed to plural "wives"?
• Can you say clearly what Joseph and Fanny were doing in the barn that caused Oliver to talk about the incident as "a dirty, nasty, filthy affair"?
• Do you know whether the late sealing to Emma (after 20+ plural "wives") was Joseph's idea, or that of Emma?
• Do "She would likely have refused." and "Without a doubt." have the same meaning, so that you do not have to choose one or the other?
• Was Joseph guilty, under the civil law, of fornication/adultery with his plural "wives"?
• Do you think that how her sealing to Joseph affected Helen's youth is justified by your description of her later life as "full"?

Bumping for MG, who has been logged in several times since I made this comment.

[malkie]

Bonus questions for MG.

The next morning Joseph visited the Kimball home. "[He explained] the principle of Celestial marrage...After which he said to me [Helen], ‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.[‘] This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward.

Remembering the Wives of Joseph Smith: Helen Mar Kimball

• Do you know of any other occasion on which a Mormon prophet has promised someone "your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred"?
• Look out!! Hypothetical ahead!! Is that the kind of promise a true prophet is entitled to make, "this step" being entering into celestial marriage with the prophet?
  I have to say that, for me, it all seems rather self serving, and the promise seems rather broad.

Bumping for MG, who appears to have been logged in several times since I made this comment.

[malkie]

In my post I failed to add a word that makes a big difference in what I wrote:



malkie, I did read your response but I am not seeing anything that puts a hole in anything I said.

Regards,
MG

Of course you're not! You're just not producing evidence, as signaled by your use of suppositions.

You're also failing to respond to both hints and direct questions. Let me try again:

• Given your extensive use of conjecture and suppositions - in other words, non-factuals, or "hypotheticals" - is it OK for other people, including me, to also use them? Or do you still hold that as a valid criticism?
• Could Joseph not have been sealed to Emma before he took and was sealed to plural "wives"?
• Can you say clearly what Joseph and Fanny were doing in the barn that caused Oliver to talk about the incident as "a dirty, nasty, filthy affair"?
• Do you know whether the late sealing to Emma (after 20+ plural "wives") was Joseph's idea, or that of Emma?
• Do "She would likely have refused." and "Without a doubt." have the same meaning, so that you do not have to choose one or the other?
• Was Joseph guilty, under the civil law, of fornication/adultery with his plural "wives"?
• Do you think that how her sealing to Joseph affected Helen's youth is justified by your description of her later life as "full"?

See also the bonus questions in the immediately preceding comment.

[MG 2.0]

Bonus questions for MG.

Remembering the Wives of Joseph Smith: Helen Mar Kimball

• Do you know of any other occasion on which a Mormon prophet has promised someone "your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred"?
• Look out!! Hypothetical ahead!! Is that the kind of promise a true prophet is entitled to make, "this step" being entering into celestial marriage with the prophet?
  I have to say that, for me, it all seems rather self serving, and the promise seems rather broad.

Bumping for MG, who appears to have been logged in several times since I made this comment.

Hi malkie, I may have logged in but I didn't respond to your post. I think the answer is rather clear that the blessings of the New and Everlasting Covenant apply to those that enter into the convenant if they live according to the 'Law of the Lord'. At various times and in various places/conditions the Law of the Lord has been enacted and practiced in various ways. The same blessings apply, however. Receiving all that the Father has.

I was under the impression that those that participate here that have received these convenants previously would remember the promises and blessings associated with those covenants.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Of course you're not! You're just not producing evidence, as signaled by your use of suppositions.

You're also failing to respond to both hints and direct questions. Let me try again:

• Given your extensive use of conjecture and suppositions - in other words, non-factuals, or "hypotheticals" - is it OK for other people, including me, to also use them? Or do you still hold that as a valid criticism?
• Could Joseph not have been sealed to Emma before he took and was sealed to plural "wives"?
• Can you say clearly what Joseph and Fanny were doing in the barn that caused Oliver to talk about the incident as "a dirty, nasty, filthy affair"?
• Do you know whether the late sealing to Emma (after 20+ plural "wives") was Joseph's idea, or that of Emma?
• Do "She would likely have refused." and "Without a doubt." have the same meaning, so that you do not have to choose one or the other?
• Was Joseph guilty, under the civil law, of fornication/adultery with his plural "wives"?
• Do you think that how her sealing to Joseph affected Helen's youth is justified by your description of her later life as "full"?

See also the bonus questions in the immediately preceding comment.

A few of these bullet points I have responded to. The rest of them I would suppose have been responded to by Brian Hales in his three-volume series on Joseph's polygamy. Laura Hales, before she passed, may have broached some of the concerns that you have in a very good podcast series that she put out.

You might want to do a search for previous threads in the past where I have gone into some detail on why I think that much of what we have, on the negative end, in regards to Joseph's practice of polygamy is worthy of some doubt. Critics tend to gloss over women such as Elizabeth Brotherton and other women who had a testimony of polygamy being the 'Law of the Lord' at that time and place.

It's always the, "yeah that's true, but..."

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...It's always the, "yeah that's true, but..."...

It's always interesting when MG projects, as we get a glimpse into the methods a Mental Gymnast uses to bypass information and dodge questions. Disruption and derailment are his goals, not discussion. On a discussion forum, no less.